[1.5]Eldar Ranger/FS/Guardian rush

[Fyei]

I dont know if anyone else is starting to notice this, but in 1.5 it seems like every race can rush in some way shape or form, SM send Tacs/FC, Orks send Boyz/BM, Chaos send CL/Ranged/Meelee etc.

But Eldar seem to be a bit different to me, I dont know if anyone else has experianced this rush but when you have a Hero, a squad which breaks squads instantly and then some nifty ranged troops AND Fleet of Foot it gets a bit tough to handle.

I realise that this kind of rush is hard to do, because of the micro involved but im willing to bet if two players attacked one another and one sent out a rush like this, then im willing to bet the Eldar will win most of the time.

Its the combo of (practically, two heroes at the start) that annoys me, and there almost impossible to tie up while he is FoFing around... and whats more if they start to lose all the Eldar player has to do it FoF away and sit next to an LP2 while he reinforces.

Standard scenario for me is, teleport BM to tie up rangers, rangers start FoFing around. Send first sluggas to tie up guardians, they start FoFing around. The remaining guardian squads start shooting at my shoota squads, I shoot back. Farseer uses Mind war on BM, 1/3 kills it, uses Psychic storm on sluggas, breaks them. If I fight I steadily lose and he techs ahead... if I run I lose too many men and he can run faster than me anyway so why bother...

I usually end up dropping at this point because its obvious im fighting a losing battle - even when I get stormboys out its usually too late because he brings out Falcons and the lark.

Whats everyone else think? (Dont flame, you can have your opinions without flaming )

[Energizer Bunny]

I still don't see rangers much, but the mere presence of FoF will always make Eldar a threat in T1 if they rush you. They are one of the few races that can go for an all out rush and still come out relatively unscathed if it doesn't come off.

That to one side, there is enough to the rush you mention to, IMHO, make it a cut above most other rushes. I have less of a problem losing to a coordinated attack by a mixture of well microed troops, than I do to hundreds of tacs overwatching on my base after one and a half minutes of gameplay.

[Fyei]

Personally ive never found tacs to be much of a problem... but thats usually because I can keep the fight with the SM player for the whole game.

This isnt an issue with Eldar though b/c they just run circles around me If you was to ask me id say FoF needed pushing back a little in the tech tree and SM HP taken back to its proper value instead of the bugged values that exist currently.

[DukeRustfield]

Rangers are more expensive than sluggas and will easily lose in a fight. You have to micro too if you want to fight a micro race. SO, if you chase, he can't shoot. If he FoF's far enough away and stops, you need to turn around. He has a setup time on his guns and you should be out of range. If he FoF's back in, you case and engage and he will have to flee again.

[Fyei]

Erm, I do micro, im pretty good at it if I may say so myself. The problem is that my men cant keep up, infact, he usually just runs away to I might aswell just set my sqauds to attack his squads then leave them to chase them around the map while they get slowly picked off. If I run back he turns around and shoots me and then he starts chasing me... and I lose men a LOT faster than he does, mainly because I dont have FoF to run away with.

[The_Guardman]

Setup can be compensated by a creative use of FoF+infiltration, setup, shoot, FoF away, Infiltrate againg, repeat.
Nothing wrong whit this IMHO. It's the way they are intended to be played. It's the guardians who scare me.

[Fyei]

It's the guardians who scare me.

Thats what bothers me, its not the Rangers or the Farseer or the Guardians themselves... its what they can do when the 3 are combined.

[tweekerninjoo]

LOL! Guardians suck! As orks a few banners will kill them, just run back to defenses. Guardians are only strong till you get a 2nd shoota squad. Also ( I shouldn't tell you about this) shootas will absolutley Pwn GUs in melee.

[tl998]

dude. It's Orks vs Eldar. ANYTHING the Orks have will beat Eldar in melee.

Well, maybe not Grots, but even Grots can survive a while.

[Fyei]

just run back to defenses.

This is dumb, because if I do this then I get losses and I run and even then he'll keep a good distance while all I can do it sit and watch him gain map control.

dude. It's Orks vs Eldar. ANYTHING the Orks have will beat Eldar in melee.

No shit sherlock, but then again Eldar have FoF dont they A good Eldar player will NEVER be in meelee for more than a second, especially since now the new patch improves reation times when it comes to giving out orders.

[freak_storm]

Go for stormboyz, 3 banners, PoG, and get tougher bosses - and then "get the job done fast". Then retake the map and trash his LPs, then AP. Until he gets BLOWs, your base is safe, no?

[Fyei]

Hmm... thats a good idea but the problem is that I dont know hes Eldar before my BO is in full swing... thats the main problem fighting against (or in some circumstances, it applys when your playing as Eldar too) Eldar is that you dont know hes Eldar till its too late.

Hmm... maybe if you sent out a builder unit to just scout him out or something... might try it.

[tl998]

I don't really alter my BO against Eldar. The trick is to GET MAP CONTROL FIRST. You get it before the Eldar has too many troops out, and you put the buildings up so you already HAVE half the map by the time he out-masses you.

And melee-ing Eldar is just to force them to move so they aren't shooting you. Work wonderfully when you have a Big Mek chasing them around with his Lottery Gun pistol.

[ELDAR TRAG1C]

if u out mass him and tie up his rangers, then u wont have a problem, if there are rangers and reapers then ur screwed

[Fannin]

lottery gun.. lol

Hadn't ever heard that. How does its damage and accuracy compare to other heroes?

[tl998]

Accuracy = piss poor. I think 25% on the move?
Damage = Enough to make up for poor accuracy. It's that scary.

[Hephaestus]

As an eldar player myself, I don't like those rangers, they not break a squad in one volley, unless fully reinforced, and then, I better making banshees/reapers instead... also, reapers can use FOF much better, as they don't have set-up time, so reapers > melee units (not just orkz) unless you got some SB, which are faster then normal untis.
If eldar goes for reapers, then if you didn't harras him you're deserve to lose, as it takes about 2:30-3:00 to have a squad out whild building LP's.
Anyway, a nice startegy a friend of mine showed me, was guardiains and shees, not FS, much quickier and more disruptive (shees melee), I didn't try it myself, but he says it's very good.

[ELDAR TRAG1C]

well imho shees are crap untill u get CoW, they break incredibly fast, and with the building nerf from 1.5 i find no use forthem untill CoW

[Compeador]

eldar can't even tickle buildings until teir 2. yea, the guardian + farseer + rangers army is good in teir 1 ... but that's it. They evaporate in teir 2 and the farseer's not even that good any more.

[DukeRustfield]

Reapers do about the same building dmg as Tacs. I'm a little annoyed that the FS does such crap dmg to buildings compared to other commanders.

[Compeador]

reapers may do almost as much building damage as tacs, but there won't be as many reapers as there are tacs by a long shot. And they cost more. And they reinforce slower. And they need to be shooting other infantry. And yea, farseer's kinda crap right now.

[Elferx]

Playing eldar very very frequently, the most dreaded race i face is Orks. Unlike other races(maybe IG) , the ork's base is safest against Eldar rush. Eldar drops like paper against orks' structure. However, i still use reapers to outrange orks buildings and harass lps and force orks to come out. XD

I feel the best bet against Eldar is to sit in you base and tech up. Though the Eldar may gain map control, they also lose map control easily. Tech up to Tier 2 ASAP under the protection of your base and muster a strong force. Then advance to the nearest start pt near your base(cap it and build lp) an slowly nibble your way to them.

[noxidos]

Try building 2 slugga squads, 1 shoota squad then BM. Reinforce the shoota squad fully. That usually stops any rushing for me. I also like to keep my troops fairly close. on the map. Some just guard the other squad while it caps. (Map dependent of course.) The meat sheild ties up those guardians and rangers as much as possible. Honestly I dont even bother attacking the FC, you do more damage to an army if you kill those tiny eldar troops. 30 req a peice per unit, is easier to kill then a high hp FC that will just run away.

[Elferx]

The meat sheild ties up those guardians and rangers as much as possible. Honestly I dont even bother attacking the FC, you do more damage to an army if you kill those tiny eldar troops. 30 req a peice per unit, is easier to kill then a high hp FC that will just run away.

Easily countered by a skilled Eldar player. As frequently mentioned, with FoF, your Orks seldom get a chance to CC guardians for more then 1 sec. With FS with FoF running around the battlefield disrupting your Orks range units, the guardians are free. Throw in entanglement and full ranger squad to break Orks, you are so dead.

[4Servant]

why use gaurdians or damm ranger just use reapers with uber micro and type GG

[Compeador]

because the new reapers en masse= teh sukk now. Granted if you get a big enough mass without losing any early on it's still ubar, but guardians outperform reapers for cost in all departments in 1.5, especailly after mysticism.

[Fannin]

unless you really, REALLY need the longer range.

[4Servant]

dude reapers >> mass apart from Blood river 1 serv 1 scout tac mass strat but apart from that its reapers >> mass. U just need better micro and since most eldar players have been playing an op race since dow 1.0 not many eldar players know what to do. but belive me reaper + micro >> almost all. I don't see a single reason why eldar player should use rangers/guardians.

[Old Painless]

There are no eldar replays to show us though, i switched to eldar and there are zero replays in 1.5

[4Servant]

i posted 1 on dow sanc don't look here cause there are no good eldar players on this forum as far has im aware.
select doesn't post.
lazer doesn't post much aswell
left only posts on tot 9/10 times
my clan mate trait3r mostly trains vs me and i aint gona post those aswell.
Thats why u don't see many top eldar wins.
anyway if any wana lab it im here to help.

[Fannin]

There's a very good reason to go with guardians over reapers, 4Servant. As was just pointed out, they outperform reapers for cost.

[4Servant]

they don't mate only the lame guardian rush on BR gaurds are better then reaps.
gaurds only have more numbers they don't have uber damage uber range wich allows u to shoot gun buildings without they shooting u. It also alowes u to shoot at targets that arn't in range and run away when they finaly can shoot you.

[Compeador]

out
perform
for
cost.

Key words.

Reapers in WA never did scale well into teir 2, and they scale even worse now. At least with guardians you have a CC get out of jail free card in warlock disruption, seven seconds of entagle per warlock every 90 seconds, and very similar performance for much less req. Plus, if you really really want to make your guardians last longer, there's plasma nades after the soul shrine. Reaper mass in 1.5 is just begging someone to out tech you.

And servant... I post here. Just not my replays. You know I'd be in the 1600's maybe 1700's if I wanted to subject myself to the frustration of automatch any more than I already have.:vikingb:

[4Servant]

out
perform
for
cost.

Key words.

thats
bloody
BS
reapers
are
better
than
gaurdians
in
almost
every
situation

KEY words

[Fannin]

sigh.

How about someone post some numbers, so we can put a stop to this? I'd do it myself but I have no idea where the damage numbers are.

[Compeador]

servant, i won't argue with you any more as it's rather pointless. But I, as an eldar player, say guardians outperform reapers for cost and that mass reapers are suicide now. You, as an SM player, say reapers are better in almost every situation. Dandy.

[SirNick]

I'm not going to touch Guardians v. Reapers. Not enough experience, numbers != in-game play, not my place.

What I can do however, is point out an interesting tidbit about Plasma Grenades that I never knew about.

Plasma Grenades, in addition to a guaranteed 85-95 damage in a radius of 4 to infantry, for three seconds duration they
1) Reduce enemy accuracy to 50% of its former value and
2) Reduce enemy speed by 50%.

This is nifty.

[4Servant]

no need for numbers every top player uses reapers why would gaurdians be better than?
I can get 1700 easy with eldar reapers while I cannot reach that with gaurds cause they simple don't stand to tac mass/asm and all the other blablabla .
if u guys think ur smart with numbers or whatever fine by me all i can tell u is that u have to use reapers in almost 90% of the situations due fof/long range hit run and high dps.
my mate and me train eldar vs sm alot and if he goes gaurds and not doing to the lame rush with them i have 0 trouble bashing him. When he goes reaps I can't beat him due intensive range micro wich sm cannot. Trust me that guy is 5x better than the eldar players here so he knows what he is doing.
so if u wana play eldar and whine that they are being shit cause u use gaurds/rangers is ur choice.

[GRIM Ripper]

for cost i believe guardians have slightly worse damage and HPs of an inferior armor type also. the greater reaper range is probably their biggest selling point though. people always talk like you have to spam one unit or the other... guards are good bc they reinforce fast and are cheap, and they still do a good amt of range damage, while having the option for abilities (entangle/plasma grenades, etc). reapers are good bc they are individually more durable (thus you have to replace them less often especially in combination with FoF) and have good range and damage.

GRIM avocado uses a reasonable combination of both i believe and hes 1680... i at least know for sure that he doesnt abandon reapers in favor of pure guardians.

edit: wow sirnick that is really cool! for how long?

[nude-fox]

ok servant and compeador replays please that will settle the situation

[Compeador]

Avacado has his army combo just about perfect for 1.5 Three guards with warlocks, rangers, 1 or 2 reaps, farseer. That's ideal for most cases.

[Fannin]

I never seem to have the money for that amount of squads. How in the hell do people get that many troops, while also reinforcing what they have?

[l TRAG1C l]

3 warlocked guardians+rangers+FS can wtfpwn
and when u add to more reapers later on then you can wtfomgpwn

this imho is the best way to go, you can counter anything (but maybe orks)early game

[nude-fox]

i dont see any problem with this rush if an elder can combine 3 elements that are individually pretty weak combine them and micro good enough to win isnt that the definition of strategy?

[Old Painless]

It would seem so, you'd have to keep those reapers alive though, 70 req each isnt exactly cheap.

I can't see reapers out performing Guardians in T1 though.