Possessed Marines 1.5

[the_almighty_moo]

ever since fire prisms and assault terminators have been nerfed, possessed marines have waltzed into the power vacuum of OP unit. They are VERY hard to stop as guard. for one thier flame attack pwns kasrkin morale far too fast, and quite frankly ogryns suck.

On top of that they are extremely fast and can rape tanks just as fast, doesnt anyone else think this is a bit sick?

IMO thier flame attack needs a serious nerf in the rape morale division. or kasrkin morale needs to be hardened.

anyone with me on this?

[GRIM Ripper]

kasrkin are fine... PSM though are pretty ridiculous -- they are fast, durable, immune to morale, cause MASSIVE morale damage, and are effective against all targets including buildings... i dont know what they were thinking with these guys.

their flame used to be an individual weapon upgrade... maybe it would be best to reinstate it that way (30/5 per flamer or something like that).

[PheonixIgnite]

PSM have always been a very effective unit and continue to be so. They are not unstoppable though, artillery, frags and well placed CC units should be able to stop a PSM rush. Like most units in the game, if they hit critical mass because you didn't play aggressive enough, then you're playing with fire.

[Hawkbit]

Like Pheonix said they are tough but not unkillable. The easiest way to balance them is too reduce the the morale damage that they do with their flamers. PSM although tough are not overpowered except for their jaw droopping morale damage. Ogryns with priests can easily out damage them in a one on one fight its the morale damage that really tips the scales.

[tl998]

PSMs need a nerf. Nerf their speed and their morale damage, and maybe increase power cost as well.

[Control Monkey]

I think they need a nerf to building damage.

IMO they should be the best CC unit in the game. ATs have their niche, Ogryns are good with full upgrades (maybe better than PSM), Eldar have no CC to speak of, and orks... well, get pwned in T3 anyway.

[GRIM Ripper]

artillery? HA... not everyone can mass WWs, and basilisks will get off 1-2 shots before they are overrun and pwned by a horde of PSM.

and actually its quite easy to get mass PSM in a team game... in fact any unit is and it happens a LOT regardless of agressive play or not.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Ya I agree with grim and on top of those, Artilleries can t be everywhere. In a team game(where PSMs show up), you will usually see where the artilery is and can just go around it and if the artilery leaves that area then its good for your allies and you still wont be seeing them hit you in awhile, not to mention if they go straight for the HQ.

And since they are so CC dependant, now the new rhinos can just go around smoking everything so that even a basi shot only does 14 DPS(although I don t know if it works against ES but those things are expensive).

Smokes also makes kasrkin DPS a joke, with hellguns doing a measely 3(4.5 w/ priest) DPS and plasma guns doing 6(9)DPS.

Just wait til the rhinos catch on, and you will see whats REALLY imba about PSMs.

[RedOnesGoFasta]

IMHO, all tier 3 melee infantry need a nerf in their building damage. Base blowing should be left to the AV specialist units. Giving a normal unit the ability to destroy a base and fight infantry/vechicles effectively is too much. But lets remember, small changes at one time, if you nerf PSM too heavily and then chaos becomes weak in tier 3.

Probably let them keep thier speed, infantry damage, and morale damage but nerf thier pierce on buildings/vechicles. To make up for the lessened AV ability give horros a buff/upgrade for tier 3, or better yet give chaos thier missles back.

[Neurophobia]

This is funny PSM was always the best CC infantry in the game taking down anything but vehicles in no time at all. You suggest nerfin building dmg, well I'm down for this but then you will complain about nasty ATs (they actually do more damage to buildings believe it or not).
I think that PSM is fine now, simply for the fact that it costs very much and if used in large numbers you have a hard time making them attack properly (thank you pathing). I also accept that PSM vs IG have a real easy time but I seriously think that this isn't the PSMs fault for it only has this easy job vs IG.
Also the IG is nerfed to stoneage in this patch so what we need to change here is IG and not PSM. If you end up nerfing PSM then chaos would lose the remaining base busting power and the last chance to turn a match with superior tactics / squad movement.

[BanEvader]

Possessed are fine the way they are. If you touch possessed, you'd have to do the same thing to all other tier3 infantry units.

Otherwise chaos gets the short end of the stick......

AGAIN.

[insanehomie]

every thing is fine the way it is and nothing needs nerfin either, their killable, its jut that ig isnt a mele race, space marines can take out the psm's and eldar can too,

[Dryden]

@insanehomie
oh, eldar can take out PSM?
plz tell me how!
I labbed WS\Shees vs PSM in 1.41 and it was defeat\draw.
Now WS & shees are nerfed. So I guess it will be defeat\defeat.

So what is your suggestion?

[BanEvader]

You won't defeat PSM's with JUST melee units. They are supposed to be the best units. IT even says so on the damned tooltip, so stop trying to beat them with melee units. Unless you outnumber them 3:1 with fully reinforced melee squads, you aren't going to do jack. And even then you will take considerable loses. This is how it should be.

Minefields and ranged firepower drops these guys hard and fast. I've seen it happened to my own possessed on ocassions in standard team battles.

Minefields or some type of artillary unit. Disurption and ranged firepower is your friend.

[CrazyMiggs]

IG can handle PSM just fine. Many Chimeras backed up by a few basy's provide an effective wall of armour to prevent the PSM's getting to your base whilst the basys make relatively light work of PSM's. The basys dont damage the Chims much and devastate the PSMs and with all the disruption PSMs arent doing much damage.

I recently lost 4 squads of PSM to this trick and there were no Kasrkins in sight. This worked vs me on Oasis (down the sides) but on smaller maps it works even better since you need less chims to effectively block a choke point whilst Basys rain down on them.

Power hungry build of course, but this is IG after all so everything requires too much power.

Like Ban, I am a fan of mines vs PSM. Relatively inexpensive vs PSMs (and AT's or Ogryns but mainly PSM i find) is once the game is looking like it will reach the latter tiers is to put 4 or so mines around your HQ. I always build my barracks / power etc. at the beggining enough distance from the HQ to fit mines around it.

PSM seem to be drawn to HQ's like moths to a flame and the disruption rather than the damage (although I find the damage now buffed is actually pretty decent) gives you time to get back to your HQ with arty or Kasys etc. / your allies to come over and help. I have seen this many times now scare off the PSM entirely since it is rather disconcerting to see PSMs flying all over the place doing little damage.

I am not saying this the ultimate hard counter for PSMs but it does make a difference.

[Energizer Bunny]

PSM are OP'd. SM have some chance with the WW, and IF Eldar are T4 then the FP will probably get them through. Every other race is boned though. They are unstoppable for them.

[BanEvader]

Keep in mind the PSM's are supposed to be the best melee unit. If you nerf them, all other high tiered melee units must be nerfed as well to keep in the line of order.

And that wouldn't fix anything.

There doesnt NEED to be any fixing. You just need to actually used STRATS when encountering PSM.

Every race does fine against PSM with the exception of orks, and that's because since ork infantry are melee oriented, they get obliterated by PSM's. And the vehicles are so weak, and do less damage to monster armor, they get destroyed as well.

I'd have to go for mass trucks with the scatter affect stuff backed by w/e the hell orcs got that is decent at range against those PSM.

It isn;t a matter of nerfing PSM, it's a matter of making orcs a more developed race. Right now they kind of feel unfinished. I'd go as far to say as guard feels more complete than orcs.

[Energizer Bunny]

At T3 Eldar also get completely owned.

Orks obviously have no chance.

AT's get completely owned (imba WW currently compensates)

IG get completely owned, provided the chaos player knows what they're doing.

The only saving grace is that Chaos are so pants in the earlier game that it almost justified a win button in T3.

[BanEvader]

You are brining now proof, or logic to the discussion here. Your saying "Possessed are OPed, Possessed are OPed, so and so race sucks against it".

You are in the wrong, because i've seen possessed taken down a lot of the time.

taking down 1-3 possessed squads is not impossible. It's VERY doable.

However, taking down a maxed-cap amount? That'll be very hard to do. And if you let them do that in the first place, you SHOULD lose.

Any tier 3 unit massed is pretty much an instant win, people just look at possessed because it's supposed to be the best melee unit. Just turn down the building damage it does. Nothing else needs to be changed.

[retroholyfire]

However, taking down a maxed-cap amount? That'll be very hard to do. And if you let them do that in the first place, you SHOULD lose.

BanEvader that is the same logic that was applied to why FP's were not OP in 1.41. There is not "should lose" about it. No race should have a "haha I got this far since I played well enough to stop you earlier now I get an ista win." If PSM's need multiple units to take them down they are OP. Their morale damage is insane since they break a squad just by running at it!

[Energizer Bunny]

Well I would have thought that comparing their abilities to their counterparts in other races was logic, but meh

I also don't really see what the full cap thing has to do with it. If full cap PSM > full cap other T3 units, then surely 1 unit PSM > 1 unit of other T3 units. Whichever way you want to look at it is fine with me. The critical mass thing does still need to be factored in though, and the whole don't let them get there arguement is and always has been negated by the existence of large team games, where huge T3 armies are a near certainty

That aside, I still think they're op, purely because they own their counterparts in all other races. Yes they can be taken down in small numbers, but it requires considerable effort and combined arms costing far more than the PSM do. WW's can and regularly do do it, and Kasrkins can also do well if you're ready, but I really don't see anything else in T3 that stands up to them. AT's/Banshees/Nobz/Ogryns certainly don't. WW's need a nerf anyway, so if they go then the PSM will have to have something done to it.

[l TRAG1C l]

take away the flamers and take away some building dps and they would be balanced

[Fannin]

Why do they get those horrendously-powerful flamers anyway?

[W0lf]

oh yeah sure pick on chaos now.....

Sm > orks > eldar > Chaos > ig....

how bout you nefrf something else :jk:

seriously though.... they arnt that imba... only at critical mass..... nerf BUILDING damage and they are fine.

[Golden Dragoon]

IG can handle PSM just fine. Many Chimeras backed up by a few basy's provide an effective wall of armour to prevent the PSM's getting to your base whilst the basys make relatively light work of PSM's. The basys dont damage the Chims much and devastate the PSMs and with all the disruption PSMs arent doing much damage.

What you going to do when the Chaos Preds come rolling in?

seriously though.... they arnt that imba... only at critical mass..... nerf BUILDING damage and they are fine.

Who cares about building damage if you can kill every unit with the PSM's you'll win cause you can build nothing to stop the PSM, then they can slowly take out the buildings.

I think change the cap of PSM to 4 and to make up for it change the cap of Zerkers to 3 (so we won't have Chaos Players complaining that their Melee units both take 4 cap) Also nerf those flamers, then slighty reduce the speed of PSM. Also there might be a point of actually getting Oblits if PSM cap goes to 4. IMO PSM>Oblits. You could say Oblits can Deepstrike but PSM's are so fast that it seems like they can Deepstrike.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

as IG, even before the patch, i had trouble with PSMs. i had fully upgraded kassies with priests and commies.
and the instant i lose one commander i'm screwed because they break just so damn fast.
i really hate those flamers. they're the most effective flamer in existence and it's just rediculous. slowing the psms down would give them more time to use the flamer. i would rather be in CC and dance them out
than have my squadies broken for a longer time

[Neurophobia]

Go on and nerf PSM. So that chaos won't have any anti-building unit till T4 (other than T2 horrors). Now that's what I call balancing.
For all the people having problems with PSM : learn to use artillery

[Broodstar]

Hellfire Dreads + Whirlwinds
Rockets from Orcs
Basilisks
Vypers / FP's

Each race has some form of disruption, use it

[retroholyfire]

Lets see... Take the bassie as an example. At its RoF it will shoot 1 or 2 shots before the PSM's are level with it and then they destroy it in a matter of seconds. WW's are better but again their RoF won't stop PSM's. And you think needing a full cap of infantry + arty to beat 1 thing is no IMBA? It's the same argument Eldar players gave to protect FP's "Fp's are not IMBA since if you let an Eldar player get that far they deserve an insta-win and it can still be countered by full infantry with dedicated AV and full cap of vehicles" Use some common sense. PSM's break units before they reach CC and their speed + damage is ridiculous. It's not even like you have to wait to tier 4 to get them like FP's in 1.41. All that is not including their building damage. They are OP. Accept it.

[terracomm7]

Ork Rockets to disrupt Possessed Space Marines, are you daft?

Trakks die in seconds ( eve with bomb chukkas ), Tankbustas is just moronic, and looted Leman Russes are tier four...

[Energizer Bunny]

WW's are the only artillery with a chance against PSM, and WW's are ridiculously OP'd anyway. FP's do well but they are T4, and take a very long time to get to.

[Broodstar]

Wasn't trying to say they weren't imba, just that there are some things that give them fits, regardless of how effective they are or not.

[W0lf]

just nerf psm, make them not used and then we get oblit spam... then we can nerf oblits and then chaos becombes eldar with no usable tier 3 troops.

[Energizer Bunny]

Well I take into account that post was in jest, but in case you're being serious, it would be perfectly easy to tone down the possessed marine a little without making it useless. That has been shown this patch with the nerfs to AT's and Oblits which, with the exception of building damage, are much better now

[GRIM Ripper]

haha i laughed when i saw ork rockets to disrupt a huge horde of possessed.

besides, if you take a look at the other thread, people suggesting a nerf to PSM building damage probably want it done to all T3 units... this isnt just some "pick on chaos" thread.

seriously, people always think a nerf means the unit will then be useless, or that a balance suggestion about their race is really part of a secret agenda to nerf everything but their own preferred race! give me a break. most people just want to see the game balanced, and if you just look at the logic of PSM - fast, durable, high damage vs everything, immune to morale, massive morale damage, relatively cheap and quick reinforce time - you will see that they have no weakness. saying "use artillery" is stupid bc possessed are LESS vulnerable to artillery than any other unit due to their speed so that is not a counter by any means. sure mass wws can do it, but theyre OPed too as has been mentioned.

[tl998]

Nerf everyone's t3 to Eldar level

[BanEvader]

Don't even touch possessed marines EXCEPT for building damage. Otherwise they are fine.

Everytime Relic nercs something, that unit get's useless or just underpowered but still useable.

Defilers
Chaos Space Marines
Raptors
Bezerkers

Yeah, I think we have something to worry about when everyone looks at possessed marines, which in the TOOLTIP says they are supposed to be .....

"THE ULTIMATE MELEE UNIT"

They are supposed own every infantry based melee units. Even nobs with powerclaws go down quickly because their morale breaks so freaking fast.

If you touch anything with this melee unit, you MUST bring all other melee units into line as well. This means Assault Terms, Nobs, Ogyrns, and other melee units need to recieve nerfs as well.

So remember, nerf here = nerf everywhere.

[tl998]

I wouldn't mind PSM being as good as they are...if their cost increased dramatically. It's all about cost-effectively and time taken to reinforce. PSMs make Chaos upper tiers incredibly powerful.

Think about it. How would you as an Eldar or Orks player beat Chaos in tier 3 fighting?

[Old Painless]

PSM are fine except for building damage....

*OP Roffles*

[tl998]

and their speed, reinforce rate, cost, uber morale damage, etc...

[W0lf]

what? old painless.... what the hell are you... what? nvm.

oh and psm are more expensive then any other tier 3 infantry equillivant.....

[RedOnesGoFasta]

Think about it. How would you as an Eldar or Orks player beat Chaos in tier 3 fighting?

Actually as an ork player PSM's haven't been too bad. The key is the 3 commander units and the mob bonus. Morale immunity makes flamers useless and the damage buff puts them almost on par with PSM damage without klaws(Klaws slaughter PSM in my exp). Also PSM do not have a leader unit while nobz do, giving them another boost in damage.

Three Nob squads With Big Mek, warboss, and MANZ will take out an equal number of PSM with thier heroes in them as well(fully upgraded). However this does not stop them from running into my base and killing most of my banners :mean: .

This thread seems to be very alike to the Base Bashing thread. The consensus seems to be Tier 3 melee is too good at base killing. Hopefully relic relizes this and will rebalance the units, nerfing melee while buffing AV specialists in base killing.

[retroholyfire]

Maybe more expensive but they do more damage costwise for their cost than their equivalents. the morale breaking is the really bad part since by the time they reach your infantry, your morale has broken and you can't put up a fight. Try to run away? they are just as fast whilst constantly flaming so morale never comes back. If the chaos player knows what he is doing your infantry will never regain their morale or be able to fight back.

[tl998]

what? old painless.... what the hell are you... what? nvm.

oh and psm are more expensive then any other tier 3 infantry equillivant.....

I'm sorry...no. Nobz with klaws are much more expensive, and take WAY longer to reinforce, and run much slower, and don't have uber flamers, and I think do less damage. Oh, and also takes more pop usage than PSM.

Red: Klawed Nobz evnetually lose to PSM becuase of the LOOOONG reinforce time (24 seconds for a klawed Nob to show up compared to 10 for a PSM)

[BanEvader]

The solution to this problem will be the solution to ALL ifantry problems. And that solution has been looking at chaos players after the second heretic comes out. Cultists.

All units should have a fast rienforce time OUTSIDE of combat. And inside they should take longer.

This isnt PSM specific, it's ALL UNIT specific. Increased game pace. More action, less waiting.

[Old Painless]

It's like roll on floor laughing dudeh.

I am amused, is all.

We all know PSM are OP to teh maxxxx, but some don't like to be told it apparently.

You have the Best melee unit in the game, be content with the best by a bit rather than the best by a league.

[BanEvader]

I never said they werent overpowered. Do not be so quick to assume you understand the thoughts of another. Especially when they haven't posted such information. I chuckle are you futile attempts to be funny and try and subtly flame me at the same time. You fail though.

What I suggested, was to bring rienforcement of all races down in combat, so that when a squad member dies, 2 more don't popup in his place.

Also, IF a possessed nerf comes along, you'd have to improve Chaos Projectiles, obliterators and the bloodthirster. I feel that part of the PSM overpoweredness results from long research times and buggy/crappy relic units.

Though I doubt anyone would care, too many cry-babies in here to open their eyes to see the big picture.

"Energy can't be created nor destroyed, just transfered" and blah blah blah. I feel this idea, while has seemingly NOTHING to do with Dawn of war, has a main idea which is key to ballance in games.

I always thought the initial game ballance wasn't too far off. Just needs tweaks here and there. But when you absolutely destroy a unit with the nerf bat, you should transfer some of it's power and evenly distribute it with likeminded units on the same side.

Basicly, with every nerf, should always be supported by a buff. No side should recieve flat out nerfs. Then you end up like the imperial guard is now. And how orcs still kind of are.

Laugh if you must, but im trying to take this seriously, and for those that don't are just being trolls.

[Old Painless]

Your assuming all things are equal, they are not.

If you make Oblits more powerful your back to 1.41 walkie tactics, and they are still pretty damn tough now imo.

Chaos projectiles are already outstanding for damage, they could stand no improvement as they are already borderline.

I think your taking this friendly discussion just a little bit too seriously. Relax, i'm not trying to suggest anything im not saying.

[BanEvader]

What sucks though, is that your FORCED to used predators, because you know they scale. They perform better than a defiler. And have more survivability. Not because they have 700 more hitpoints, but because they are fast.

I'd build defilers IF they scaled. But you'd just be wasting money, as they don't complete with the higher end vehicles. For such an iconic unit, it sure does suck.

And the walky oblits is pretty much exploiting so they only use their autocannon against everything. I don't get why they CANT be fixed. Just make the oblits autocannon do crap damage vs whatever it ISNT supposed to be used for to avoid the exploiting.

Increase damage of the guns the oblits have vs like-minded units, and lower it for everything else to avoid the same fate as the autocannon. Make them melt stuff. Increase their cap to 4.

Do the same with Possessed, increase their cap to 4, decrease their building damage. And then make Zerkers cap 3 with some scalability.

[retroholyfire]

BanEvadar Say unit A has a cost effective value of 10. Unit B has a cost effective value of 5. you say that if A is nerfed B must be too. Say they were changed to 8 and 3 respectively is that any better for balance? No. Unit A is actually even better since as a percentage Unit B<50% of unit A whereas before B=50% unit A. Also as with energy cannot be destroyed only transferred when you try to apply that to DoW you made a tiny error. Some races have more of that energy to transfer than others.