Sturmhaubitze

Fortress Europe

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EDIT: I have completely deleted all the old content from this 1st post. Most of it was horribly out of date and no longer representative of what the mod will be.



Fortress Europe is a mod for Company of Heroes and Opposing Fronts (NOTE: Both products must be purchased) that introduces the following major game play changes.

1. There is no base building. The starting Headquarters does not serve a purpose any longer, and you cannot build Barracks, Tank Depots, Kampfkraft centers, or any other base building.
2. All units arrive from off the map. Nothing is built on the map, it all deploys from the starting entrance road in your territory.
3. You do not buy technology upgrades for your force. There is no "Escalate to Skirmish" upgrade, or need to build a Supply Depot, in order to unlock units. The only thing preventing you from deploying a powerful unit is its initial cost.

In addition to these major points, there's a few more game play changes.

4. You cannot spam a single unit endlessly. There is a hard limit on the number of any particular unit that can be deployed during a game, and this limit varies depending on the company the player chooses (More on that below). This represents the reality that there is no infinite reserve of anything in an army.
5. There is no magical off-screen artillery that can target anything the player can see. Artillery is handled through special Observer units that direct artillery units to barrage the targeted area. If an observer can't see the target, the artillery can't fire on it. The observer's ability to call in a strike takes 10 seconds or more to finish, and forces all artillery of the specified type to fire (Similar to Victor Target).
6. Infantry and some weapon teams automatically conceal themselves when in cover. Infantry in light cover or better automatically disappear from view until you get within a certain distance, allowing them to sneak around the battlefield and ambush enemies. Some elite units retain the ability to remain concealed when in the open.

Companies

At the beginning of the game, every player must choose a Company before they can begin deploying units. Your choice of company determines what units are available and in what quantity. These are all based off of actual Tables of Organization and Equipment (TO&E, or KStN for German companies) in use during World War 2.

Your choice of company also determines what "perks" your company has available to it. Perks are advantages specific to your company's training or equipment, and can only be chosen at the very beginning of the game. Once chosen, you cannot undo your choice or pick another. Perks will not be available in the first beta release of the mod.

Here is a current list of all the companies, broken down by nation:

American
Rifle Company
Armored Rifle Company
Ranger Company
Parachute Rifle Company
Tank Company
Cavalry Recon Troop

British
Rifle Company
Motor Company
Royal Army Commando Troop
Air Landing Company
Armoured Squadron
Tank Squadron

German
Grenadierkompanie
Panzergrenadierkompanie
Fallschirmjägerkompanie
Aufklärungsschwadron
Panzerkompanie
Schwere Panzerkompanie

Doctrines

Doctrines no longer contain reinforcements or off-map support. Most advantages of the old doctrine system now exist in the Perk system, or are available as normal units. Instead the Doctrines will focus on short-term tactics within the framework of three "Personalities"
Aggressive - Nothing you do is ever half-hearted; experience has led you to prefer decisive attacks and overwhelming defenses. Though your massive assaults and rigid defenses lead to high casualties, the results speak for themselves as they leave the enemy shattered.
Evasive - Your tactical abilities are focused on out-maneuvering the enemy and striking at the time and place of your choosing. You do not waste men in lengthy battles of attrition, preferring to hit at weak points, or avoid the enemy altogether if you are out-numbered.
Cautious - Experience has taught you to not march into a trap, and to always expect the enemy to be stronger than anticipated. Your movements are carefully planned and you are rarely taken by surprise.

Once you have purchased a tactic from your doctrine with command points, you have one usage of that tactic available to you. Once it is used, the tactic can be purchased again from the doctrine menu. Tactics do not need to be purchased in a specific order. Command points are easier to accrue than before, encouraging the player to use their tactics rather than hoarding them for a rainy day. Here is an example of a tactic from the Aggressive doctrine:
Hold at all Costs - Infantry near the officer using this tactic cannot retreat and move slowly, but cannot be suppressed and fire faster. Lasts for thirty seconds.

Mechanical Realism

1. All guns have relatively realistic penetration. The KwK43 88mm on the Jagdpanther and Tiger II is going to cleave through any armour at any distance. On the lower end, the KwK38 20mm on the SdKfz 234/1 and SdKfz 222 has no chance of penetrating any tank armour, except the rear of some medium and light tanks.
2. All tank guns have their damage brought closer together. The damage from an 88mm is still greater than a 75mm, but not as substantially greater as it once was. The damage from a 37mm (like from the Stuart's M5 37mm gun) is not so minor that a penetrating hit on a tank goes unnoticed.
3. All infantry have the same hit points. The only defensive factor amongst troops is that better trained men are harder to hit and harder to suppress.
4. Sight ranges on all units are set to 60m, camouflage detection radius varies. The ability to see terrain and enemies in the open is uniform across the board, but spotting hidden enemies is not. A medium or heavy tank is a very poor choice for spotting concealed units, while infantry are much better, and reconnaissance units are the best.
5. Gun ranges have been scaled within the new sight range. The maximum range of a direct fire gun is 60m, and weapons vary from 60m to 16m in range. Small arms occupy the 36m range and below, and tank guns are 44mm and up in range. Infantry anti-tank rockets have a range of 24m or 28m, making it crucial that infantry ambush tanks at shorter ranges and not approach in the open where the tank can use its superior range.
6. Vehicle-mounted machine-guns are as effective as squad-carried machine-guns. The hull and co-axial machine-guns on tanks and some vehicles function as well as their infantry equivalent, and can suppress just as well.

Unit Organization

1. Most units are deployed to the battlefield in squad/section groups. If a particular platoon is divided into two sections, and each section has a Jeep and a Recon squad, then every usage of the deployment ability gives you one Jeep and a Recon squad.
2. Units are sorted into platoons. In order to deploy sections/squads, you need to purchase an upgrade for the platoon that contains them. This upgrade then provides a set number of sections/squads appropriate to the platoon's historical size. For example, purchasing the British Armoured platoon (Sherman V) upgrade allows you to purchase and deploy up to three Sherman V tanks and up to one Firefly VC tank. Once you have expended all the tanks in the platoon, you will need to buy the upgrade again (If your company is allowed access to more than one platoon of that type, not all are).
3. Platoons are organized by category. Sometimes there's a choice as to what equipment or organization a platoon might have. For example, a British Armoured platoon can either be equipped with Sherman V tanks or Cromwell IV tanks. If your company is allowed one or more Armoured platoons, you can choose either, but both count as an Armoured platoon. Choosing one uses up a single choice from that category. The amount of platoons available in a single category is shown in the bottom right corner of the upgrade button, while the bottom left corner shows a symbol for what category it falls under.

Mirage Knight

This mod is definitely on my watch list

Are you going to implement historically accurate squad sizes as well?

Sturmhaubitze

I'm still toying with the idea. I have no qualms with keeping things the way they are, since they tended to split squads up into teams anyways in practice. A full squad of 8+ men was sometimes given a task meant for two or more squads, so they had no choice but to split up. The current "squad" sizes approximates what a team usually came down to.

If I did do realistic squad sizes, it would greatly improve the staying power of infantry versus some attacks, though you'd have difficult cramming them all into cover, so their overall life expectancy would be the same. It's a fairly even trade-off in my opinion, so it all comes down to whether it works out well in-game.

I am adjusting some "team" sizes to fix some glaring problems. For example, the Pionier team is now four men rather than two, and Combat Engineers are five men. Engineer/Pioniers are also better combatants, and only slightly worse than Riflemen/Grenadiers, considering their main role was to be out in the field clearing/making obstacles and assaulting fortified positions.

Speaking of which, here's how Pioniers work as an example:
- 4 man team, all armed with Kar98 rifles, though less effective than Grenadiers.
- Will have a new ability for clearing Allied tanktraps using their blowtorches, but takes longer to clear than it does to build them.
- Will have a new ability to deploy a goliath, though only one can be in the field at a time. Historically these were deployed by Pionier platoons and remote controlled this way.
- Company-specific upgrade for "Panzerknackers", which was a broad category of improved antitank charges made from bundled grenades and antitank mines. These will act like sticky bombs, but with an even shorter throw range, more damage, but no automatic engine critical.
- Flamethrower and minesweeper upgrades, as usual.
- Company-specific upgrade for equipping the entire team with MP40's.
- Company-specific upgrade for camouflage.
Pioniers, not just for carpentry

And Combat Engineers will have their own upgrades and improvements.

Corsix

Pioneer changes sounding very interesting. I'll be keeping my eye (and my eye-R-C) on this/

Taipan

Sounds good Cant wait to play!

FiffA

This sounds good ! Sturmhaubitze, very nice. I like the setup uve done so far. This is gonna get watched by me

Mickey C

I really like the sound of this mod, there's alot of micro already and replacing the base with a off-map one sounds pretty good. Great name too.

Some questions/suggestions I wanna put out there :

-Medics ? Will this be reworked ? Maybe troops retreat to an off map reserve where they can heal up then be called in at no cost, although the trade off being that they need to remain in reserve for a period of time before redeployed. Maybe jeeps could be made available to ferry wounded troops faster.

-Mg nests and bunkers ? Guessing these won't be in but will there be any way to further fortify mg positions beyond sandbagging ? Tarp or somethun.

-Reinforcements. Could all infantry arrive in transport vehicles rather than from the HQ ? Transport trucks could roll in and deploy standard infantry and assault squads could arrive in armoured transports as you've mentioned. Maybe a limited number of 8-10 transport trucks can be made available and destroying truck convoys has a significant impact on reinforcement. Destroyed troop trucks could be placed in a lengthy replacement que before being available again to slow reinforcement although something like 2 trucks minimum will always be available.

-Vehicle/infantry upgrades off map and individual ? Veterancy ? Seemed odd to me that upgunning shermans and german veterancy is instantly applied to all current vehicles/infantry on the map. I reckon vehicles should be recalled off map and fitted individualy off map, the upgrade costing resources and the fitting of them to vehicles applied off map freely after that, then once fitted the vehicle can be redeployed with upgrades. Also would be an idea to allow recalled vehicles to remove upgrades, ie. removing armour plates provides a speed bonus and shermans can revert to the 75mm gun inorder to have a more effective anti-infantry main gun. Also veterancy could be organised the same as the current allied system for both sides but Germans could also gain the option to call in full veteran squads from the Eastern front at a cost + limited pool per game.

Also infantry could have to be deployed with light machine guns or panzershreks rather than suddenly gaining equipent in the middle of a fire-fight. Possibly air drops and supply trucks loaded with weapons rather than troops could be an option to rapidly deploy heavy weapons to ill-equiped troops already in combat.

Sturmhaubitze

The first veterancy bonus for all unit types is a defensive one, to ensure the unit has a longer life expectancy and has a chance of seeing rank 2. For infantry this means getting health regeneration.
There'll be other healing options as well, still exploring the possibilities and seeing what could/would work.



Heavy Machinegun teams will be of more importance in this mod, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. With health regeneration and a received accuracy reduction at rank one, they'll survive longer. I imagine that the gameplay will be more dynamic and less conducive to turtling, considering that you no longer need to build several buildings and wait a while to get your first tank out, so an MG nest wouldn't be as useful as you'd think.



Won't work, there's currently no way to make vehicles arrive with troops already in them. You'll be able to call in trucks for transport if you wish, but otherwise troops arrive without them.



Using in-game upgrades is a necessary evil. I'm already short on places to put buttons for everything, so splitting up units into 'With upgrade X' and 'Without upgrade X' will be unfeasible. I'll likely explore the possibility of removing the 'in territory' status from resource points, so that you can only upgrade while in your HQ area.

Mickey C

Some good answers, wasn't aware of the modding limitations.

Guess without bunkers buildings are of much more value to capture. Should be pretty interesting !

Vagyr Admiral

umm... thats not soo corect... Sherman had best frontal armor in the war...

and will there be a german Shwevelverfer?

but had a weak rear

Sturmhaubitze

The M4A3 Sherman did not have the best frontal armour in the war. There are many many many tanks with more effective frontal armour, either through thickness or slope. It was tougher than the Panzer IV H, but not tougher than Panthers and Tigers.




Not sure what you meant by 'schwevel', though I assume you meant 'werfer' for launcher.

Vagyr Admiral

I MEANT TIGERII SRY FOR THE MISTAKE!

its the most effective missile launcher in normandy

the tiger could beat 3 shermans or 4 churchill tanks

Sturmhaubitze

I'm not putting the Koenigstiger (Tiger II) into my mod, as there's no model importer available at the moment. The armour values I gave are for the Tiger I E, which is the standard tiger used from 1942 onwards to the end of the war.

Though if I did include it, the Koenigstiger would be...

Frontal armour: 14
Rear armour: 8
Antitank rating: 16

Sturmhaubitze

As time passes I'll mention other changes that will be going in. Most of these changes have either already been prototyped to some degree, or at least were already set in writing for over a month. They aren't just crazy things I thought up at the last moment.

So, here's a sample of more features/changes/additions:

Sherman T34 Calliope
This tank will be a reinforcement call-in that is specific to the Armoured Rifle company. To compensate for the Armoured Rifles not getting their own artillery battery, and accompanying artillery observer squad, they have access to on-map rocket artillery via the Calliope. However the Sherman T34 was incapable of using its main gun while the rocket tubes were mounted, so it's only armed with the hull and coaxial machineguns. The initial delay before a barrage will be increased to account for how clumsy it was to use them (So the current practice of firing barrages during tank duels won't work anymore) but the purchase price of the Sherman T34 will drop considerably.

SdKfz 251/1 Wurfrahmen 40 ("Stuka zu Fuss or Walking Stuka")
This halftrack, like all other halftracks, is strictly for the Panzergrenadierkompanie. It's an upgrade that is unlocked at some point in the doctrine tree. It can still transport troops once upgraded, and has both front and rear MG mounts (This is historically accurate), and the cost to upgrade is cheaper. Barrages will now cost munitions to fire, bringing it more in line with how the Calliope works. The Panzergrenadierkompanie is similar to Armoured Rifles in that they lack an off-map artillery battery, so the Wurfrahmen40 28cm rockets are their main artillery option.

SdKfz 251/2 Mortar carrier
An open-topped halftrack with a GW34 Mortar team inside. Essentially a faster and better protected mortar, but can only fire the mortar when stationary. Still has the front and rear MG mounts. Again this is only an option for Panzergrenadiers, and is unlocked in the doctrine tree.

M10 "Wolverine" Tank Destroyer
This vehicle is a little less durable than it was before, but its main gun is as effective at punching through armour as it was historically. The 3 inch gun has a 45% chance of punching through a Tiger's front at short range, and a 90% chance against a Panzer IV H's front. The traverse on the turret has been slowed down a bit, but it's still faster than the historically accurate speed which was 2 minutes to do a full 360 degree turn (Yeah, it's turret was hand-cranked and turned slower than the Tiger's). To more closely emulate the tank destroyer doctrine in use by US forces, the M10 Wolverine gains an Ambush ability and a Disengage ability. Ambush allows the M10 to become camouflaged, and have a damage and penetration bonus on the first few shots, but it cannot move, and it can be revealed from greater distances (Scouts, like armoured cars, can see it without putting themselves in danger, but a tank won't until its too late). Disengage is essentially a retreat option for vehicles, allowing the M10 to quickly escape danger after springing an ambush. M10's are available to all three Allied companies in a limited amount, but Rangers will be able to field double the normal limit.

Armoured Cars
In general, both armoured cars got a boost. The reload times on the Greyhound's 37mm and the Puma's 50mm were atrocious and innaccurate, they both now fire at roughly the same rate as a medium tank. Additionally they can now reveal camouflage/ambush within a radius somewhat shorter than jeeps and motorcycles, making them actually useful for reconnaissance. Veterancy boosts emphasize speed and avoiding hits, rather than making them tougher (25% reduction in penetration is useless if the chance of deflecting a shot was minimal to begin with), so staying mobile will allow them to survive quite well. The Aufklaerungsschwadron and Ranger Company can field more armoured cars than other companies can.

If you're wondering, it is both historically accurate and wise tactics to pair up M8 Greyhounds with M10 Wolverines. Use the armoured cars to recon ahead, spot enemy tanks, and lure them back to ambushing Wolverines.

Mirage Knight

Would I be correct in assuming that the Sdkfz 251/16 Flammpanzerwagen will be a seperate vehicle with manned MG's?

If so, may I suggest also that the SdKfz. 234 be split into two seperate vehicles - i.e., the SdKfz. 234/1 armed with the 2cm KwK 38 and the SdKfz. 234/2 armed with the 5cm KwK 39.

For the Allies, the same ought to be done with the M3 Halftrack and the quad .50 cal variant.

Sturmhaubitze

That's the current plan. I might run out of button space and need to keep some upgrades, but if all goes well there won't be any 'massive' upgrades. If something only marginally changes a vehicle (add MG gunner or side skirt armour), it stays an upgrade. If it completely changes the role of the vehicle (Flammenwerfer), it's a separate vehicle altogether.

And yes, the Flammpanzerwagen keeps its front MG. So it gets a bit of a boost against infantry. The front MG on all SdKfz 251 variants is manned by a crew member, so you don't need passengers to enable it. The rear AA MG mount is enabled by passengers only, so only the SdKfz 251/1 and 251/1 Wurfrahmen 40 have the rear MG.

The MG for the M3 halftrack is also crew-manned, and doesn't need passengers to enable it. This makes the stock halftrack for both sides more useful across the board.

Also forgot to mention that I will be enabling the smoke launchers on the SdKfz 234/2's turret (Look closely, they're in the model). It's not as big a deal since we're talking about an armoured car, not a tank, but it's a nice touch and makes hit-and-run Puma attacks more feasible.

Mirage Knight

Most excellent...Every time you post further updates and ideas I become even more impressed - I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing this released

If you need some stats or historical data, let me know

Sturmhaubitze

Updates:

I am going with full squad sizes. I tried out a Grenadier squad of 9 men, which was their historical amount, and it worked well. Some squads will actually just be teams, such as Pioniers and Combat Engineers being only teams of 4 and 5 men respectively, rather than a full squad of 8 or 10. This was done because building units don't work well above 5 men.

Adding the Retreat option to vehicles works reasonably well, though they all try to park on the HQ's doorstep. Reconnaissance vehicles will be able to retreat, increasing their speed by 50% and reducing enemy accuracy by 50%. This allows recon vehicles to disengage from trouble, since their main role was to scout and not get involved in protracted firefights.

Ambush doesn't work very well, since there's parts of vehicle models that don't get camouflaged. I will likely drop this if I can't find a solution.


I'm considering putting the FlaK36 and FlaK38 back on the build menu, and shifting the Waffen-SS Kompanie to a full Grenadierkompanie. This would mean they're foot infantry, and have limited access to vehicles, but it would help in differentiating them more from the other two companies.

Airborne Company has a Pathfinder squad that has the ability to place flares for paradrops. Their historical role was to scout out the dropzone and signal the drop, so all the paradrops and airplane attacks go through this squad. They're very expensive, and you're limited to one, but you do get a full squad of 12 men. Airborne also gets a paradropped Jeep, since they actually did do this.

Motorcycles and Jeeps got a buff to their main weapon, so it's now as effective as the MG gunners for tanks. They're still fairly easily to kill though, especially since squad sizes got upped.

The Crocodile is being removed and replaced by a flamethrower tank that they actually used more than one of. The M4A3R3 "Zippo" is a 75mm-armed Sherman which has had its hull-mounted MG replaced with a flamethrower. Since it has to turn to face infantry, it can't do drive-by attacks, but the 75mm makes up for this.


Axis Veterancy is working and is much more satisfying than buying global upgrades. The upgrades make much more sense (An Elite PaK38 crew is accurate, reloads faster, penetrates more often, has a slow health regen, is harder to hit, and does more damage), and will soon be added to Allied units so that it's the same system across the board. This is much easier than trying to balance two separate systems against each other.

Sooth

The crocodile was used. But... Well, they made 4 of them. Improvised on the field. And the "Zippo" is a term for ALL flame tanks... Atleast thats what I've been told.

Mirage Knight

From what I understand, the majority of M4 flamethrower tanks were used in the Pacific (1945) where they proved very effective at taking out Japanese bunkers. The 75mm gun could crack open the fortifications, allowing the crew to burn out the occupants.

There were two versions:

• M4A3R3 - a Sherman variant used during Operation Overlord (1944) and in the Battle of Iwo Jima (1945)

• M4 Crocodile - four M4 tanks converted by British for US 2nd Armored Division in NW Europe with the same armored fuel trailer as used on the Churchill crocodile.

Items of note: With the exception of the Panzer III Ausf. M Flammpanzer "Flamingo", most flamerthrower tank conversions retained their main gun, substituting one of the vehicle's MGs for a flamethrower: There's even an instance of T34's having their hull mg's replaced with flamethrowers. In addition, most flamethrower tanks towed a special armoured trailer behind them which carried fuel for the flamethrower although some carried fuel drums on their rear decks.

Sturmhaubitze

Updates:

Most of the new doctrine abilities are done in paper, and the vast majority should work as desired after poking around the RGDs to assess what actions/modifiers/requirements I have to play with. Here's a teaser of some of the iconic Axis doctrine abilities for various companies.

Aufklaerungsschwadron
Camouflage Training
Provide your men with vital instruction in how to remain undetected on the battlefield. Your infantry and support sections gain the Camouflage ability.
( Short on heavy firepower, this company succeeds in being sneaky. Company Command, Grenadiers, HMG Sections and Mortar Sections get camouflage, so they can sneak into enemy lines and surprise foes. Camouflaged HMG and PaK38 teams together is quite a combo. )

Panzergrenadierkompanie
Mounted Assault
Take advantage of the mobility your halftracks provide to gain ground. SdKfz 251/1 Halftracks with passengers can capture stategic points, and provide protection to nearby troops.
( If your troops are in a SdKfz 251/1, you can cap points. Troops within close proximity of an SdKfz 251/1 are harder to hit and hurt. This simulates actual halftrack tactics of dismounting in the fray. )

Waffen-SS Grenadierkompanie
Infantry Antitank Assets
Obtain shipments of disposable antitank rockets and fashion improvised explosives from materials on hand. Your infantry gain the Panzerfaust and Panzerknacker abilities.
( Grenadiers get Panzerfausts, which are a little bit cheaper this time around, and Pioniers and Company Command teams can toss heavy antitank charges in close range. Waffen-SS companies of all sorts got goodies before the regular army did, and were well-supplied. )

I haven't written up the descriptions for the Allied doctrine abilities yet, so I'll save those teasers for later.

Kyranzor

wow nice mod you got going here Sturmhaubitze, i have high expectations that you will prove your worth as a modder. you seem to have a very good grasp of modding, and your skill probably even surpasses my own in some areas of COH modding. good luck mate!!!

Searaven

Reading through this topic, I noticed that you didn't mention anything about the Nebelwerfer. I feel it's kind of an important unit since it was a vital anti-infantry artillery piece that could fire over several miles, unlike the bizarre short-range, unbelievably inaccurate thing we have in CoH. So please, give it a bit of love and attention. If possible, it would also be nice if it was capable of firing smoke as well, since it is after all called a "smoke launcher" (or fog launcher, smoke thrower, whatever the hell you want to translate it to).

Anyway, from what I've read so far, this mod is just like my wish list of everything I wanted CoH to be. Now give it to me, fast.

I'll leave interpretation of that last statement to you.

Sturmhaubitze

Artillery is all off-map now, so you won't see the nebelwerfer battery that is delivering the rocket barrage you ordered. Waffen-SS Grenadierkompanie gets an artillery observer team that can target areas for 150mm rocket bombardment, which is delivered by an off-map battery of 3 nebelwerfers. It will be much like Firestorm, except the same amount of rockets condensed into a shorter timeframe.

All off-map artillery can fire smoke bombardments, for a cheaper cost than a regular bombardment.

The exception to off-map artillery is Armoured Rifle Company and Panzergrenadierkompanie, which have no off-map artillery batteries or air support. Instead they have to use Sherman Calliopes and SdKfz 251 Wurfrahmen40s (Walking Stuka) respectively. If I can get it to work, they'll also have mortar carrier options for their halftracks. These two companies have their strengths in all the toys they can deploy, so they had to take a penalty somewhere.

Sturmhaubitze

I've been spending a lot of time creating the six new doctrine trees and balancing their abilities and units accordingly. Choosing one doctrine over another is now a very important choice.

The Waffen-SS Grenadierkompanie doctrine is no more, and has been replaced by the Pionierkompanie. This was partly to avoid criticism over including the SS into the game, but also because I had a lot of Pionier-specific abilities and upgrades planned out, so it was a minor shift.

Here's the text description my mod will use when you are selecting doctrines:

"Every Grenadier Division has significant engineering resources in the form of Pionierkompanies. While they are not motorised like their Panzergrenadier counterparts, they are tough and self-reliant soldiers that undertake some of the most dangerous work. Pioniers perform difficult engineering tasks in the field while under fire, as well as flushing out entrenched infantry in close combat. No fortification can withstand a concerted assault from Pioniers when properly supported and coordinated."

As for more general changes, tank hitpoints are going to drop across the board. Armour is now more important than hitpoints, and penetrating shots will hurt. The antitank guns will have their penetration and damage dropped to realistic amounts, but infantry antitank rockets will remain in their current state.

Using original damage and hitpoints values meant that it can take upwards of 7 penetrating shots for a medium tank to kill another medium tank. I trapped an AI's Sherman Crocodile with a Panzer IV and hit it repeatedly in its rear armour, and the damn thing would not die. It just sat there and blissfully roasted my base and infantry, and it took far too long to kill considering that it was being hit in its rear armour continuously.

Antitank Guns are going to plummet in price, considering that they will now have trouble penetrating the frontal armour of some tanks. The PaK38 has only a 30% chance of penetrating a Sherman's front, and 0% chance of penetrating a Pershing's front. The M1 57mm has a 60% chance of penetrating a Panzer IV's front, a 45% chance against StuGs, a 15% chance against Tigers, and 0% chance against Panthers. Antitank Guns need to be deployed in numbers, or only used in a support role against vehicles and buildings.

Searaven

Sounds great, really want to try this one out. I've noticed that in normal CoH a shot that deflects off a tank still does some minor damage, have you fixed that too? Because combined with low HP it could lead to some tanks being blunted to death, which of course, doesn't make any sense.

30% chance of penetration on a Shermans' front worries me a bit, you might need to alter that for the sake of keeping the Pak38 a viable unit even if it isn't realistic.

Can you give us an ETA or a rough estimate on the % completed? I know that it's difficult since on a project like this, you never feel finished and you just want to keep tweaking and tweaking forever, but if you release it and gain a bit of community recognition like Kyranzor has with his mod, the community could help to iron out the bugs and balance or think up solutions to any problems you come across.

blackrook

This mod sounds like exactly what I have been waiting for.

I know you said you had decided on the squad sizes, but maybe you could divide them into fire teams for different roles, like one for flanking and one for suppressing. The one for suppressing would have BARs or Garands, and the one for flanking would have Thompsons or Carbines. And for the Germans the suppressing team could have one MG42 w/ bipod but their bolt-action Kars would be at an disadvantage to the Garands. The flanking team could have some MP40s for some more volume. Each team could be selected individually or a whole.

Just an idea.

Sturmhaubitze

I think I'll keep the deflection damage. Right now the difference between deflection damage and penetration damage is much more dramatic. A penetrating hit between a Panzer IV and a Sherman will take off a quarter of its hitpoints, while the deflection would just take off 1/26th of its hitpoints. Chances are unlikely that a tank duel will last long enough to notice the deflection damage building up



It will still be viable, but you'll need to make use of camouflage to get that first strike bonus. It can also be used to get rid of pesky HMG teams and other softer targets. It's also much cheaper, as is the M1 57mm, so you can afford to use several when before you'd only get one.



I've considered releasing as soon as I have the Axis changes in place. It wouldn't be really playable in a player vs. player match-up, but for AI skirmishes it'd be useful for finding problems. I'm also just one guy, so it's a slow process.

Right now the Allied features haven't been enabled, so the Allied AI still builds everything as normal. The weapon values and hitpoint changes are live though for both sides.

There's also a lot of custom icons and symbols I've made to support the new infantry squads and doctrine abilities. Another reason why this is taking longer than usual.



Problem with splitting into teams is that there's no mechanism for keeping the teams together. So if I spawn 2 teams, the player can send the two teams off and never keep them together, making the point of them being a squad somewhat pointless. That and I can't spawn two things at the same time from a building, so every infantry squad would have to be an off-map reinforcement, and I'd run out of button space

One benefit of large squad sizes is that you're less likely to outright lose a squad from a couple lucky cannon shots. Always bugged me that my antitank troops (Rangers, Grenadiers, etc.) would go from full-strength to 'OMG RUN AWAY!' in a single shot, making them somewhat vulnerable to the one thing I was using them to hunt. A Grenadier squad of 9 men can now use a Panzerfaust on a tank without having to retreat a moment later. This also means you can keep a squad alive long enough to earn veterancy.

And speaking of veterancy, there's an extra reward for keeping units alive and improving their experience. When a unit reaches rank 3, you are given the option of giving them the Distinguished Service Cross (Allies) or Knight's Cross (Axis). Only 3 units in a game can be given this award, and it's cost is relative to the cost of the unit being awarded (Awarding a tank crew with a medal is expensive). The award further increases all the stats of the unit, making it very tough.

So, yes, you can have a Knight's Cross Tiger.

blackrook

Oh, I was afraid there would be some limitations like that. Oh well, the DSC/KC idea sounds pretty interesting.

alexbretzer

Hey guys sounds sweet when do you think it will be done??

Heylookacow

Impressive. This will make it a really proper WW2 game. I really enjoy CoH but building soldiers in factories is a bit weird.

Sturmhaubitze

Update:

Currently figuring out a way to "spread out" the vehicle/tank reinforcements over time. The only vehicles that you get immediately are transports, if your company allows for it, so the rest are granted over time. Some of them are awarded for taking a certain doctrine upgrade (ie. Heavy tanks), while others are more generic and you don't need a specific doctrine upgrade (ie. Medium tanks). The trick is how to spread out the generic vehicles, so that the early game is primarily infantry.

I'm not too worried about a "slippery slope" mechanic, since a mostly-infantry force will be viable in this mod. Vehicles are limited in number anyways, so you can't spam tanks even if you had the resources to do so.

I could probably put an upgrade on the HQ that costs a large amount of manpower, and this can be bought twice in order to unlock 2 tiers of vehicle reinforcements. I considered making these upgrades cost command points, but if you set a command point cost on a non-doctrine upgrade it will still allow you to buy it even if you don't have the points.

captfinlay

Sounds good I like the HQ upgrade.

Mirage Knight

I had an idea - what about allowing only two buildings for each side?

The idea is that you use the tank buildings as repair facilities for damaged vehicles as opposed to construction sites and one of the main infantry buildings as a forward hospital of sorts. Naturally, you could give them long build times.

Sturmhaubitze

New update, check the 1st post for new information on progress and what's in store.

Still no solid ETA on when I will be done, but I am leaning towards releasing before I am completely finished. Also if anyone is a SCAR coder and wants to contribute some assistance, please PM me. Your work will be properly creditted.

Searaven

Love your design for the Pionierkompanie, sounds very well thought-out and strikes a good balance between gameplay and historical accuracy. I like it a lot better than Relic's more generic, less flavorful, and occasionally downright wacky (zeal + inspired assault anyone?) Axis doctrines.

You said that Assault Pioneers can't build defenses or repair, so I'm a little bit curious - what other stuff can they do? Lay barbed wire? Wire Cutters? Mine detectors? They should have some unique capabilities so that people don't perceive them as just "Volksgrenadiers with flamethrowers".

I also hope that you make sure the observer team has a decent call-in radius, I'd hate to see them forced to get within about 30 meters of the target like the Leutnant does now.

Sturmhaubitze

** Mini-Update in the first post: icon art teaser. **


Assault Pioneers can destroy obstructions like barbed wire and tank traps, and will have the panzerknacker ability for taking out armour at close range. They're basically the Sturmpioniertruppe and Stosstruppe that fought in Stalingrad and other Eastern Front cityfights. My implementation is slightly ahistorical since the SMG squads weren't used much, if at all, on the Western Front, but I felt that the Assault Pioneers added a lot of flavour compared to the usual rifle-only squads.

Volksgrenadiers aren't in my mod, since they were a desperation measure that came about much later in the war. During Normandy the infantry divisions still had a high quality of training. This means that the only squads that have a high density of MP40's are Company Command HQ's and the Assault Pioneers. I use the Volksgrenadier model for other things.

Observer Teams have a fairly good sight range, and their bombardment abilities match that. The time to target for artillery has been increased, but you don't have smoke anymore to give a warning. Artillery in the middle of a moving battle won't be as effective, but against a static defense it will be even more punishing since they won't know to retreat until the first shell hits. Having a reconnaissance unit patrolling for the Observer team will help keep artillery off your back, plus they can only have one in play at a team so they can't be everywhere at once. If the Observer isn't there, you can't be hit. All artillery have the option of dropping smoke instead, which is much cheaper and blankets a large area, perfect for assaults on entrenched machine-guns.

The Sniper went from murderer to annoyance when I upped the squad sizes. To remedy this, the Sniper is a two-man team (spotter and sniper, only one is armed) so that it can survive a bit longer. This is another ahistorical change, since two-man sniper teams is a mostly modern doctrine, but I imagine that sometimes they did go out in pairs during WW2... just not often. Another change is that the sniper rifle causes suppression, and eventually pinning, on enemies nearby the victim. This represents the fear that snipers could inflict on the battlefield, and turns them from assassins to terror weapons. The only doctrines that can deploy a Sniper (Limit of 3) are foot infantry, since mechanised infantry were too mobile to have much use for them. This leaves Snipers in the hands of the Airborne Company and Pionierkompanie, and another benefit to giving up vehicles.

blackrook

You stated that only three units would be able to upgrade to DSC/KC status. Does that mean three units alive on the field or three units for the entire game?

Searaven

The more you talk about this, Sturmhaubitze, the more excited I get. Although I would rather keep the sniper at one man and maybe lower the cost or increase the range if they weren't useful enough, I can understand your reasons.

I've also been thinking a bit about the experience system. Maybe you've already thought of this as well, but here's my idea: make unit experience more difficult to acquire, but with greater rewards. I've noticed that in normal CoH (for the allies obviously) units can shoot up to maximum experience in short order. For example, I've had an AT gun get the last shot on a Tiger and go from nothing to level 2 veterancy. At the same time, the bonus of having these highly experienced units is for the most part underwhelming. I don't really care that much if my squad gets a 10% bonus here and a 5% bonus there. I propose that you make it so that if you put the effort into micromanaging a squad and ensure that it gets a lot of action without dying, the rewards will be great. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that experience makes a huge difference in real combat, so it wouldn't go against the more realistic theme of your mod. At the same time it would add a little bit more fun and character into the game, and would go with your special Distinguished Service/Knight's cross level quite nicely.

Sturmhaubitze

I originally intended for it to be 3 per game, but the current implementation only allows for 3 at any one time. So if one dies, you can award another rank 3 unit with a medal. I'm tempted to greatly increase the bonuses and limit it to only one in play. I'll likely also set the cost to be a multiple of the unit's base cost, probably 2-3x, so that it's not an immediately obvious choice to make. So that if you see an M26 Pershing rumble around the corner with a star where the vet chevrons would be, or a Tiger I E with a Knight's Cross where the vet dots would be... prepare for a nasty fight.



Right now my veterancy bonuses are the same at every rank, but cumulatively increase. So at rank 1 a unit gets a +10% bonus to something, then at rank 2 they get another +10%, and rank 3 another +10% bonus. This adds up to a total 33.1% bonus, which exceeds what the original bonuses tended to be (usually capped at around +25%). Every unit gets 5 bonuses, so they get better at both defense and offense, and the bonuses are specific to the category of unit they are.

So, for example, tank turret rotation speed improves as it gains in veterancy, allowing it to track targets better. StuG IV's and StuH 42's are assault guns without a turret, and gain a bonus to range instead since they were largely crewed by artillery men. M10 Wolverines are tank destroyers and aren't as sturdy as proper tanks, so instead of a reduction in enemy weapon penetration, they get a bonus to not being hit due to their speed. And so on. I tried to match up the bonuses to what the troop/vehicle's purpose was, so that it got better at the tasks it would be performing, and its survivability improved as it levelled up.

I'm tempted to increase the required experience, since it seems a bit easy to get an anti-infantry vehicle levelled up (ie. Original CoH Shermans getting rank 1 just by firing a couple times at troops). The original Allied system was 8 / 16 / 32 for the experience needed, and I just copied that. I might increase it to 10 / 20 / 40, or something similar in progression.

Unkn0wn

Seems like a very promising mod.

Also if you really want to aim for realism I don't think Waffen-SS doctrine should be an issue, it's historically accurate. If people can't deal with the name being in a game, they shouldn't play the game. (People sometimes forget to draw a line between the SS & the Waffen SS, who generally were brave fighters on the field with the atrocities put aside...)

Besides the game already features stormtroopers who are basically the Waffen-SS forces renamed. (And it has all kinds of units & abilities ingame that just go right in with a Waffen-SS doctrine)

Either way, just my 0.2 cents .

Keep up the good work!

Astariel

Looks great can't wait to play it

Sturmhaubitze

Small update:

No new content to mention, but I have been working hard on the presentation and UI to make sure it looks good. I wasn't satisfied with having the build icons placed wherever I had room, as it made for a somewhat messy command panel. The HQ was particularly disastrous and unorganized.

After some experiments I've determined I can get around this and avoid button clutter and running out of space for buttons. I won't get into the specifics at this time since I'm not 100% certain it can be pulled off to my satisfaction, but if it does work I will be able to:
1. Have more than 3 companies per side (Waffen-SS can make a come-back, Unkn0wn).
2. Have as many upgrade/reinforcement buttons that I want in the HQ and/or doctrine panel.
3. Have all the HQ buttons organized in a clean and orderly fashion.

Stay tuned.

spud..

this is sounding better and better evry time and those new icons are sweet good job man

Sturmhaubitze

UI changes work. Basically the HQ has submenus, similar to the veteran unit submenus in the Allied singleplayer barracks, where everything is stored. There's submenus for infantry, support, vehicles, armour, and upgrades. Click on a submenu button and you get all the options contained inside, and a back button for returning to the HQ's main menu.

The doctrine pane is freed up to only contain the non-reinforcement doctrine abilities. I can also add new units as models become available in the future, and not have to worry about running out of button space.

Extra Edit:

I've been looking more seriously at how I'm going to set the prices for units. Reason why is that I want to remove fuel as a cost variable for vehicles, and assign them only a manpower cost. Similarly I want upgraded vehicles to be seperate purchases, so that you can buy either a 75mm Sherman or a 76mm Sherman, and you can't upgrade the 75mm once purchased. This would mean that the munitions cost for the upgrade would need to be converted to manpower and added to the unit.

The current formula I will be trying out is multiplying munitions by 2 and fuel by 4, and adding that to the manpower cost.

For example...
M3 Halftrack / SdKfz 251/1 Halftrack = 220 Manpower, 20 Fuel = 220 + 20x4 = 300 Manpower
SdKfz 251/1 "Walking Stuka" = 220 Manpower, 150 Munitions, 20 Fuel = 220 + 150x2 + 20x4 = 500 Manpower
M10 Wolverine = 300 Manpower, 60 Fuel = 300 + 60x4 = 540 Manpower
Panther = 640 Manpower, 140 Fuel = 640 + 140x4 = 1200 Manpower

What am I going to do with Fuel then? More on that in a future update.

blackrook

Good to hear the ideas work. So this means that there can be more than 3 doctrines/companies per side?

Sturmhaubitze

There will only be 3 doctrines per side, but there can be more than 3 companies per side. Your choice of company is independant of your doctrine choice.

I found that I was stuffing the doctrines full of "You can deploy this" and "You can deploy that" abilities, which are rather boring. Instead your choice of company dictates what you can field, and the doctrines are special abilities that emphasize a certain method of warfare.

When you first start a game, you have no builder unit, and your HQ has a button for each company choice. Once you select a company, you can properly begin and start building your company by going through the submenus. Some units are only available once you have built up the core of your company. For example, some of your company's troops are attached to your HQ, such as snipers and tankhunter teams, so you can't field them until your Command team is in play. Other units require a minimum amount of basic infantry in play, so for a Grenadier company to field HMG teams, you'll need at least 2 Grenadier squads in play. To get some of the heavier assets like StuG IVs, you'll need both a Command team and 4 Grenadier squads. The same progression applies to all other companies, though the infantry needed as a minimum obviously differs.

This ensures that you can't field your vehicles right away, and also ensures that your infantry company actually is an infantry company. If someone kills off your Command team, you'll be left unable to call in more heavy support, so you'd best keep them alive or replace them quickly. However your Command team has many abilities that assist your troops, and only nearby troops gain the benefits, so you're encouraged to keep them near the frontlines.

I've shuffled around the doctrine abilities so that I didn't lose any work, and the new set-up looks a bit like the Vanilla CoH system, except for the Allies.

Axis Doctrines are still Defense, Blitzkrieg and Terror. The difference is that none of these have any artillery or reinforcement abilities. Instead they're filled with special powers that emphasize their purpose. As an example, one new Terror ability is called "Tank Terror", and this temporarily causes all tanks to suppress enemy infantry faster, and causes nearby enemy infantry to flinch the same way they do when artillery lands nearby (Especially appropriate for Tigers).

Allied Doctrines are now Fighting Spirit, Logistics, and Combined Arms.
Fighting Spirit is all about heroism, determination, and giving it your all. It has abilities like Field Repairs, Defensive Operations, Raid, and three new ones based off of actual US WW2 terms and methods. One example would be "Truscott Trot", which is a weaker form of Fire Up that allows all your troops to speed march for a short time (This is an actual WW2 term named after General Truscott, who endlessly drilled his men on speedmarching).

Logistics emphasizes the industrial might of the US, and how it was able to provide ammunition, fuel and supplies to its troops in abundance. Allied Warmachine and Supply Drops are in this doctrine, as well as new abilities for expending ammo and fuel to gain an edge. One example is "Indirect Tank Fire", which allows a tank to temporarily extend its range and fire more rapidly, at the expense of accuracy and penetration due to lobbing shells in a higher arc (All tanks could fire indirectly in theory, but only British and US tanks had the ammunition to spare, since tanks made poor artillery pieces). Great for lobbing shells down a street to soften up enemy defenses, but useless against anything with armour. Also eats up munitions.

Combined Arms highlights the US approach in how it rapidly modernized its army, and tried to make every element work in harmony through excellent radio communications. This doctrine has Strafing Run and Bombing Run, which allow you to field an airforce observer team that can call in these attacks, but also has a variety of upgrades that improve the performance of artillery, tank destroyers, and how well your units function when nearby other friendly units of different types. One example ability is "Time on Target", which gives your Observer teams another barrage ability. This extra barrage takes far longer to respond, but all the shells arrive within a split second of each other, giving anyone caught in the zone no change to escape. This was an actual term for how US artillery could calculate the time for every shell to land, and then use these calculations when firing a bombardment for maximum effect. Great for hitting an unsuspecting enemy strongpoint, but useless against any force that's on the move.

So you can play an Armoured Rifle Company with Logistics doctrine, an Aufklaerungsschwadron employing Terror doctrine, a Ranger Company using Fighting Spirit doctrine, a Fallschirmjaegerkompanie with the Defense doctrine... and on and on. Combine them however you like.

Hopefully this is the last redesign for the project, as I'm eager to get the Axis side done so I can start on the Allied side.

blackrook

Any developments?

The combination of doctrines and companies sound really nice.

Sturmhaubitze

Mostly a lot of UI work.

I've gotten rid of the HQ building entirely, so now all purchases and upgrades are done through the building tab buttons at the top of the taskbar. Everything spawns from the map entry point, and all reinforcement is done through the map entry point.

Because of this, Victory Points are the only win condition that's workable.

My research into the WW2 US Army has turned up some interesting things. First off, bazookas were very prevalent. Many different platoon types had bazooka teams for anti-tank defense. Even heavy machine-gun and mortar platoons could get bazookas. To simulate this, many of these squads and teams can upgrade for a single bazooka. The bazooka is also no longer as inaccurate and weak, and is nearly as good as the panzerschreck aside from having a slightly shorter range.