Norsehound

A long, long time ago, in a galaxy very near to us, I took it upon myself to gather together all the Homeworld universe concept maps and did my best to patch them all together and understand the division of the universe according to HW2. I even churned out a photoshop document of it, overlayed on an image of the whirlpool galaxy and Hw1's map tracking.

Now, for my love of the backstory and for whatever glimmers of hope that Relic would make it back into space again, I am rendering it through the miracle of vector graphics.



It's not finished- it's an ongoing work, but I thought it might be interest to some of the folks here. I should also point out that this image is vastly underscaled- the real image is monsterous.

Elixir

I seem to remember seeing something like this before but can't for the life of me recall where.

Looks good, what else are you planning to do with it?

Norsehound

Well for one, some name changes. Some of them are just temporary- trying to find some appropreatly sounding names from mythology and Biblical sources.

I've added some styleistic things in after creating this demo...

If I can get a mod started, I may be using this map as a pointer for what's going on in my version of the universe. Otherwise, it's just a nice thing to have

Thanks for commenting!

BlackLabel

Looks good. A definite candidate for my wallpaper rotation ( when finished )

GawD

If im not mistaken, you would want to give some credit to the creators of the PDS Homeworld 2 Mod for the design of that map. Its very very similar to their map, so you might want to be careful. Other than that, it looks pretty good.

Chrome

Yes, that's where!

PDS had a few of those concept maps lying around.

You could probably dig around in the monstrous PDS threads in Tanis and find it. You might also find those over at the PDS image gallery at Homy's site (I think it's homeworldtrinity.com or .org now...hopefully Homy can swing by and offer his insigh.)

Search might also give you some ideas too. (Just plug in HW2 map or somesuch...)

DatonKallandor

That actually IS the PDS map. And frankly, it would be a lot better if you hadn't included all those new things. Stuff that did never even get a single mention in any of the Homeworld sources.

Chrome

Daton, it looks like he's basing it off the PDS one, but putting his own spin on it.

Please consider the possiblity that he might be doing an independent sort of project with the PDS map as inspiration, not as direct use. For one thing, this one visually looks a lot more polished than the sketched maps I remember. Perhaps you're getting the two things mixed up. He didn't say he was using the map directly, for one thing.

Norsehound, I take it this is your intention--something independent and more your own fan project versus something built on top of the PDS concept? It might need some more explaning. For one thing, where are you getting all these extra places like the Cloisters and such?

Inert

I am pretty sure Norsehound made the original map for PDS.

It might be just me, but some of the kingdoms are still oddly shaped (like what used to be Elyssian space). The names are also a turn-off. Nothing against biblical references, though.

edit: I'm pretty anti-racial against anything other than the main four factions in Homeworld (Taiidan, Kushan, Turanics, Bentusi), so I may come off as a little harsh.

DatonKallandor

Chrome, what I meant is - Norse also did the maps for PDS, which is the reason they might come of as familiar.

Chrome

Ah, okay. I thought the name Norsehound was in relation to PDS.

Anyways....you're still entitled to your opinion about the names.

yasotay

As one of the Senior PDS team members I will set things strait by pointing out that Norsehound was instrumental in the development of the "PDS'verse" map. While I agree that some of his new names are not very exciting to me (sorry Norse' it seems you and I are destined to disagree on some things), I think he has every right to show the 'verse as he sees it. He did say some of the names are place holders.

I think it is a great start to a map for the community to haggle over and make a worthy addition to the lore that is part of the HW2 fan base.

I dream of the day of HW3 when that the map is used in conjunction with the DoW DC engine with the large map where you decide where to attack that then leads to a tactical fight that looks a lot like PDS... hey I never said I was'nt biased.

DatonKallandor

If you would provide the sources you used for placement it might be possible to discuss that piece. But as it stands, I can't really find reason for many things, eg. the placement of the various (canon) nations, or the placement of Hiigara. Where's the galactic core (Balcora)?

One should also note that you put the Turanic Kingdoms and the Imperial Remnant at opposite ends of the galaxy - with some other stuff inbetween - which is rather strange, considering they both were Taiidani space pre-Landfall. Also, the Kadeshi nebula seems dubiously placed, mainly because I can't for the live of me find a way to rotate that map so it fits with the Exile's route.

yasotay

Hey Danton, you knew this thread would pull me from my slumbers over at PDS.

I think that his postions for Hiigara, Turanic space and the Garden are direct pulls from the HW1 map that showed the progress of the game. I think that the ImpTaii is from PDS from the discussion that the last of them were pushed to the edge of galaxy. I was under the impression that the pre-Landfall Hiigara space came under the control of the Taiidan as part of the Exile.

Let the discussion begin...

Norsehound

I was half hoping to leave PDS out of this... but shame on me for digging up my old map to rework and revise to show off. I suppose in the end I should have started off from scratch....

I'm not too happy about the noncannon nations, either, although I'm working on trying to fix this- nothing is set in stone (other than the canon nations). I might fix the Imperial Taiidani, also.

Most of my perception on the universe is based on concept art and rejected ideas that were tossed around in HW2's development. So the "Port of Nalthor" is a location, rather than PDS' "Nalthorians". Likewise I intend to add in the Tobari to replace the Nalthorians presented in PDS.

The explaination as to why the Turanics and the Taiidani are related but on seperate ends of the universe is thus; Before the First Homeworld war the Taiidani were virtually galaxy-spanning. According to just about every concept map I've seen, so are the "modern" hiigarans. After the fall and the fragmentation of what used to be the Taiidan Empire, the western elements allied up with the Turanics, while the eastern side either fell in with the Republic, or turned independant.

Since the eastern side of the Galaxy (Hiigara), appears to be the most civilized, the Taiidani rebels were wiped out. Those who weren't happy about the Taiidani becoming a republic (instead of returning to the old feudal ways before Riesstiu IV came to power), joined up with whatever former imperialists there were and formed the new Taiidan empire at the fringe of the galaxy. They were allied with Makaan and divorced themselves from the Vaygr after his death.

The Turanics were also scaled back from the core regions and mostly consolidated on the far end of the galaxy. Their enemies are themselves, the small dissentful "Kiith Kadesh" (Descendants of captives unhappy with the Hiigaran Daiimid AL5), and the Nubians to the north (Where port Nalthor is).

Landmarks are also being placed on the map, including Balcora gate. Most of the recent additions to this big map are not done by looking at the concept maps, mostly because they are scattered across my Hd and likely lost. They are there, however.

For an update, I'm starting to add icons and some artistic text to the map to provide a little more depth into the story. Observe;



Provided I don't decide to re-start the entire effort of making a cohesive map, I intend to make differences between the PDS map and my own, but some things (titles, locations, info) are placeholders for things that have yet to be completely thought out.

And on the subject of icons, anyone have a vector-based versin of the Hw2 logo? This is obviously the Hiigaran sigil, but it looks difficult to recreate (for me, anyway). I had to reconstruct the Vaygr logo from a flag found on the internet! And I was fortunate also to have saved the Taiidani logo provided by relic somewhere here (A huge version). The Turanic logo was probably the easiest of them all- just a circle half red and half white.

Norsehound

assuming I haven't lost most of my audience...

Robert Frazer

I have to say it's quite interesting to read your account of the disaporas and so forth - it reminds of all of the great historic migrations I read about with all manner of unpronounceable peoples appearing from nowhere and sweeping around in great human tsunamis.

Verrin

I hope this gets turned into a flash map, that can be explored in more detail (with the obligatory information pop-ups and such), sort of like that crazy 40K galaxy map.

Chrome

I completely agree with Verrin here. This is looking to turn out very, very nice.

How do you propose to explain Kiith Kadesh however--salvaged/captured Kadeshi? There's a bit of canon to work around there, as I found out when I was working the Kadeshi into the Legacies fanfic series.

Thunderbolt

That is a Awesome map Norsehound!

i cant wait to see a finished product, that could be even used as reference for the Post Hw2 boardwar going on.

Norsehound

Well....unfortunately I have no tallent in Flash. At least yet. For if I did, I'd be more than happy to fulfil your request

Some of you might not want to accept Cataclysm as canon (in a way, I don't ), but as you recall there was an internal conflict between the disenfranchised Kiith (the sleepers), and the major Kiith. Among the number was the Somtaaw.

I had imagined that the prisoners captured from Kadesh suffered culture shock when they were interred aboard the mothership. When they arrived at Hiigara (a land, to them, was essentially eden they were cast out of), they decided to stick together and call themselves a Kiith- Kiith kadesh.

Lead by the Speaker of Kadesh (Yes, every Hw1 game I managed to capture the 'speaking' adv swarmer ;P), the Kadeshi were unhappy with the turmoil in the Daiimid and decided to throw their weight in with the Sleeper Kiith and the Somtaaw.

When it was their turn on the mothership, they accessed the deep penetration scans made of the needleship and reconstructed one. They loaded their populace into this and whatever other ships they could aquire and returned to the gardens.

After 18 (hiigaran) years, the Kadeshi managed to chase off anyone who had taken the initiative to investigate the nebula on thier own and set up operations. Since they weren't entirely comprised of their predecessors (Some Kadeshi intermarried with the Hiigarans after landfall, and some sleeper kiith joined up with them), they adapted some of Hiigaran/Kushan/core-area tech to their own. So they built stations, expanded their fleet, and started opening negotiations with their neighbors. They started behaving like other 'civilized' nations of the galaxy. The only exception was reverence of the garden, as it had been their protector for their great ancestors.

Unfortunately many of the Turanics that became kingdoms knew of the virtual treasurehouse the nebula was, and have been increasing pressure on the kiith-called-kadesh to wipe them out like the exiles did. Unfortunately, the Kadeshi aren't as stupid (or paranoid) as they once were and have the tools, know-how, ethos, and equipment to prevent the Turanics from overruning them.

Because they were so removed, Kiith Kadesh couldn't offer any real assistance to the Hiigarans against the Vaygr- but they did dispatch an expeditionary force to Hiigara to assist in their ancestral homeworld's defense.

This would have been the direction I would have steered "Children of Kadesh", had there been any interest in the fic I posted. But that's my reasoning why Kadeshi returns as a Kiith.

Chrome

Ah, see, that's exactly how I imagined the captured/salvaged Kadeshi to have behaved.

The problem was how you'd manage to convince them that a) they shouldn't commit seppuku at having been captured by Unclean, and b) the Kushans really were going to beat the Taiidan Empire in HW1.

Despite that, I completely agree with where the Kadeshi would've ended up. The Somtaaw, with their direction to go into space, would've suited them perfectly. Cramped spaceship quarters, dealing with building things on the fly, and so on and so forth. I figured this might explain certain Somtaaw ship designs in Cataclysm, as the Acolytes and MBFs look suspiciously like they had some Kadeshi influence in their design. (Some of the older Acolyte concept art looked a touch more swarmer-ish with a red camera eye, and so on.)

One thought to toss in--there might have been a few Hiigarans a bit guilty about having to fight the Protectors on the way past the Garden during the Exodus. Once knowing that the Kadeshi had built a kiith, I'd imagine some might attempt reparation by joining and refilling their ranks. Just a thought, as I'd imagine certain people may have felt honor-bound to do something about what some may have thought shouldn't have happened.

I think ultimately they would've just headed back to the Garden in the long run, but as you said, would've been more "civilized" and the like. However, I imagine the entire Clean/Unclean thing might've stuck. If they left because of political issues on Hiigara, it could be said that they might've decided to attach the concepts to behaviors. Ie, someone acting Clean or Unclean, and responding as needed.

Anyways, I liked what you had of "Children of Kadesh" thus far. Sorry it didn't get more interest. I personally am interested in the Kadeshi, their history, and so on. It's partly Riess' fault for designing a Kadeshi swarmer pilot character, and then I ended up having to put the Kadeshi into my Legacies fanfiction series. (Parts I, II, and III are up in the Studio. III is partway done, as it's something of a work in progress, chapter by chapter.)

Another thing--something canon implies but never gets into backstory wise--how about filling in specific Crusades' territories in the VAygr Reaches on the Vaygr side of the map? There's a few mentions in the horribly sparse HW2 manual about how the Crusades used to jockey for power and probably territory as well, for a very long time before Makaan unified them. It suggests to me that they likely were nations with their own borders and territories in Vaygr space. It's something you probably thought of, but I'm thinking it would add some neat flavor to the Vaygr side of the map, since it's so freaking BIG in comparison to nearly everyone except the Hiigaran Empire.

I noticed you did that with basic Kiith claims in areas of space already--but I just wondered about the Vaygr side of things.

Greenstone

It isn't That I didn't read your story, I did, I thought it was an intruiging pattern of history and sadly that is how it read. While I have from time to time enjoyed reading history books, I don't make a habit of it. Besides I like more works to find their resting places in the depths of my halls of Unread. Their presence keep me company. . .

As for why other people did not respond, well I can't really say, I liked the history and in truth wished it could have had more actual "story" to it, more profound stuff to make the heart throb and the eyes water at the events that occured within it.

Love the Map, though I wish I could see a full size version where I could read all that tiny script. As I have a special love for Cartography, and such I would dearly love to see this finished, framed and hung on my appartment wall.

Norsehound

Well, now that I know my fiction has the graces of DeepChrome, perhaps I'll find the motivation to continue Children of Kadesh. I made it as far as the Daiimid, and like most of my old fiction it was horribly written, but I re-write it as I go

I imagined the Kadeshi departed immediately upon getting their mothership- but I can understand some Kadesh remaining among the Hiigarans... one of them may have ended up as a ship engineer in the Somtaaw Camp. Ultimately the Kadeshi didn't sever ties entirely with their bretherine in Hiigara... just went somewhere else so they wouldn't get bossed around and/or annoyed.

As for Kiithid joining with the Kadesh...well...some did

Of the Kiith:



In my speculation, I have written that only two of the origional Kiith operate more or less on thier own (Own coinage, economies, armed forces). Soban is one of them obviously, since if things turned out differently history would have seen a Hiigaran civil war with the Sobani v. the majority of Hiigara.

As you can see (someone asked, I think), Somtaaw has it's own territory... but they have a sort of tragic history after the events of the Beast Wars. They invested too much on the idea that energy weapons and the ion helix would be the next best thing for the Hiigarans at large. Unfortunately the tech proved unstable, and the Somtaaw paid the price for it.

Currently the Vaygr are divided into three regions, based somewhat on PDS's ideas of the Vaygr.

The first is Makaan's armada. This is the majority of the Clans, Tribes, and bands put together under the idea that they can and will rule the universe. They don't have boundaries per se, yet at least.

The second are the Ronin vaygr. Varying bands of Vaygr that became disillusioned with Makaan's vision after his defeat at the center of the universe. Since the fanatics are in the way between where they are and where their homelands are, they dug in (One of them over Tobari space). If I am to mod this universe, some of the Ronin operate leased/stolen Hiigaran tech.

The third are the Feral vaygr- tribes and clans that did not follow Makaan to the core. They remian on the fringes of the universe using the same tech they had to begin with (All of their ships are concept models- the Missile frigate and Big Red carrier would be theirs). They aren't friend with anybody and are generally seen as galactic barbarians.

I feel like rising to your idea of mapping out the Vaygr clans... It would be nice to work on a smaller map , but I should point out that there are literally thousands of vaygr crusades- ranging from 100 people to nearly a million families. They're the most diverse range of people in the universe- even moreso than the Turanics. So if I map them, it would have to depend on what time period in history (before 2nd HW war, during, and after), and it would have to be the major clans.

Greenstone

Ooh I had another Question, Are you building this in Illustrator or some other program?

Norsehound

I guess it's because I don't have much esteem as a writer, I guess. I sometimes wonder if my stuff sux and my writing's terrible... after Tel's comments, things don't matter much.

The first part of CoK is mostly historical/recap/biblical writing. The narriative would begin, more or less, from when the exiles reached the nebula.

As for a huge print well... I wouldn't mind having that too. But over that, I would like to hear what the official Heads of Relic say about this effort... weather they've seen it or not, and how hard they're laughing about how wrong I am



I think I mentioned that I was doing this in Illustrator (Which I am). Because of the sheer amount of stuff on the map now, The chugfest is already starting to happen (it takes nearly five minutes of processing to get an excerpt shot through photoshop. Easier if I just do it all in illustrator.)

Thanks for the commentary! And DC, because you suggested it, I find myself doing details on the Vaygr catagraphic-style.

Thanks all!

Ammon Ra

I recall using the term "kiith kadesh" in a "describe hw2 ships" thread not too long ago...*cough* Seems like it stuck.

I support the notion of a flash map.

Inert

I think you might have to put the background of the galaxy in place of all that black. I'm not sure what galaxy the Homeworld Universe was based off of, but I'm sure someone remembers.

Part of whats itching me about this map is the lack of reference. Everything just seems to be a giant puzzle that doesn't fit quite right, though is very colorful.

I also imagine, after you finish this project, you'd put it in a flash program and allow users to scroll around and have pop-ups, etc. That would be really nice.

Chrome

Inert, he can always use the image of M51 as Relic used it for their HW galaxy maps behind the main one.

Norsehound, as far as the mapping of the Vaygr goes, I can see from your explanation why it would be a challenge. The HW1/Cata manuals point out hints that the kiithid also varied quite a bit in size from smaller to larger--it was only the larger ones represented in the MS crews that really were able to dig in and survive the Exodus, while the smaller ones ultimately had to either blend into larger kiithid or take off with the Somtaaw post-Landfall. Makes sense given how badly chopped-down their numbers got.

The Vaygr don't have anything like this except for Makaan's War to thin them down, and obviously have such a huge region of space in which to spread out in, bicker over, and otherwise roam about in. I imagine the infighting would've caused much shifting of borders, especially among the larger Crusades who could really dig in and run protracted wars. I imagine certain core Crusade territories held onto by the larger Tribes and so on would stay constant, and probably are going to be your easiest spots to work out on the Vaygr side. The smaller clans would likely face similar fates to the Hiigarans' smaller kiithid--either become vassals, or get the hell out of the big boys' playgrounds. I could imagine some clans becoming allied, so you might get away with territories held under federations and allies of clans for mutal defense against the bigger Crusades.

I think we all can guess that the Vaygr's history would start reading something like Fuedal Europe and Africa after a while, given all the shifting political and economic alliances and the various little wars from the bigger powers fighting one another. (Obviously that wouldn't help easy mapping much, LOL...) Considering how fast the borders are liable to shift, I think your best bet might be to go with a post Vaygr-War scenario, as the Armada de Makaan probably lost a lot of their punch and would be focusing more on their own territories and the like, while the Ronin Vaygr would likely just hold their own core borders against the fanatics.

But I'm only giving ideas out one by one, as you're the one with all the information, and this is indeed your perspective.

Don't let my constant babbling get at you, okay? This is all great work, and I hope it turns out as good as you hope.

Norsehound

Well....before I connected the words "Vaygr" and "Nomadic", I made this:



And yes, it's your fault DC :P

I might have to adjust the date to set it further back in history. The timeline of homeworld is a little wobbly to figure out... There are after all Two Calandars (Galactic Standard Year and After Landfall). AL is probably the easiest to figure (Add 100 to make homeworld 2, Cata was AL 15? I lost my manual). So one begs the question, what makes GSY? According to posted info (Thanks HWshipyards!) Landfall happened in 9510. So what happened nearly nine and a half thousand years before the Hiigarans returned- the Progenetor fall?

Since I am running around in illustrator it would be easy just to remove the black background and line it up with an image of M51. I also hope to re-create the dotted lines that trace the spiral arms, but I've forgotten how to make patterns along a line, and it's just something I can get to later.

I've added another layer which includes trade routes (One concept map had them defined), and I've also added a placeholder hyperspace gate network centered out of the Eye of Arran. It would be nice to have screencaps of what they showed at the end of HW2, to bring it closer to canon

I'm also taking liberties with some things in the HW universe. While I'm not naming all of the political entities, I did add some things from the concept scripts (Canista, where the Hiigarans suffered a great defeat), concept art (the great derelict of Masada is also added), and some conjectural locations on my own, which can be removed if undesireable (Jericho, the fortress, is located along an immense broken progenetor wall stretching from Hiigaran space to imperial Taiidan. Think of it as the intergalactic hadrian's wall...).

And while I'm babbling about details (DC, you're fine- I like reading your thoughts!), anyone wonder what Abbassid was? (The keepers that attacked Bentus). Oddly enough I found a concept art with several little logos drawn- including the Turanic detail, a new (and the old) Soban logo, the new angel moon logo, and several others. The Unified Ronin Vaygr carry that concept vaygr icon. There was also one called Abbassid... which I reasoned was a region of space the progenetors knew in ancient history. The Keepers came from a massive derelict known as Stonehenge, probably chasing the mothership's core (Stonehenge being the circular derelict seen in concept art?). The glyph from that concept art is always identified with Abbassid, but no expeditions were dispatched to that area of space since the Vaygr invasion (Abbassid is located in Vaygr held space.

Thanks for the continued interest!

JAL-18

HW2 is 115 AHL/9625 GSY, Cata is 15 AHL/9525 GSY, and Homeworld is 0 AHL/9510 GSY. The theory I've always subscribed to is that GSY 0 is when the Galactic Council was formed.

(Oh, and just because I have the information stuck in my head...in the Kharakian dating system, HW is 1216, Cata is 1231, and HW2 is 1331 KDS. The real question for me has always been what is KDS 0?... )

showhow

I had a similar work of it~
Take a look~^___^

http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f...nt=35e1184b.jpg

However, I have to lower down the quality for the files size~

BTW, the newer version has 5000 planets names on it~

Norsehound

I saw that map when I peeked into your Bentusi Mod thread (Good effort btw, even if I disagree with your backstory).

My intention of the map isn't to crowd space with hundreds of planets though- just interesting locations

Anyway, because I felt like it;



Under construction. Feel free to comment... though I wonder how many are going to hate my idea of Turanic Bandits-turned-kings....

Nurizeko

Interesting.

Greenstone

Norsehound, have you ever read Croboto's Kadeshi Crusade? Or the White Beast? Because it has a great deal of awesome Turanic organization in it, not necessarily cannon, but believable.

Love how the map is progressing and still wishing I could get a print of it.

Ammon Ra

We need some Relic interest in here...*cough* buggo*cough*.

Really impressive maps. I can't seem to find kharak on showhow's map, despite knowing where it is supposed to be. It was glassed, but it's the 2nd most important location for the hiigarans. It was their exile, and think of all the tourism you could generate! ;D

p.s. it's balcora not bacorla

Kaito

looks very nice
when this is finished, it'll play a major role in some HW BWs to come, I think.

Norsehound

Bah! Fuged on the typing :x It's been corrected since apparently.

Ammon Ra, this is the text I entered for Kharak:



Seconded on the relic interest!

For anyone interested, I managed to save a .jpg of the huge map so far (not the turanic or Vaygr maps). It is 3927 x 2930.

Scaled down 80%, this is everything on the "Big" map so far (still under construction/thinkingover/need correcting). Enter at your own risk; the image is still huge:

The "giant" map

Hiroshi_Tea

wow
i would say this map is very pleasing to the eye
and so chokeful of information!
kudos to you
and a blessing from the kadesh
that you will finish it in good time

JAL-18

I'd suggest naming one of the Eye of Aarran gates the China Gate, as one of the pieces of concept art was named that.

Greenstone

Totally awesome, and acceptable I am eager to see this thing in its complete and magnificent form.

Norsehound

Update on the Turanics;



JAL-18; The Eye of Arran is the accepted name since China Gate's concept art and images were used to depict the Eye.

It could be argued that the Eye of Arran is just a substructure of the greater China Gate, but most people would better associate with Eye of Arran, since it's the only significant portion of China Gate.

Ammon Ra

The turanic kingdom seems to be large enough to be a big player in "HW3". Hiigarans (kiithids), Vaygre (crusades), and Turanic raiders (clans). ;'D

Norsehound

I imagined Homeworld 3 being played out another hundred years in the future (or maybe even a thousand or so), when the Hiigarans are just becoming like the Bentusi were- advanced, benevolent, et. all. As the chosen of Sajuuk, after all, they get special privaledges.

But opposing them are the old forces. From the rim, the Turanic Kingdoms. Refined after centuries of infighting, they are now a force to be reconed with. They have their own progenetor tech, also.

The Taiidan aren't going to sit down and die, either. The Hiigarans are too powerful- who'se saying they are ethicly sound in determining the fate of the universe?

And the T-Mat, who have been for centuries before using pawns of the other races to do their bidding (Riesstiu, Vaygr), finally decide to take matters into their own hands.

...or something like that *shrugs*

yasotay

Norse- great map! Regardless of if (a) HW3 comes; in the history of the verse, all of the players will be about equal in capabilities.

I certainly could see the DoW/DC methodology taking place on the map you are making. Pick a sector and attack. Perhaps relics (intersting pun that) of the Progenators are the objectives of the battles (ie. Get the "Eye of Arran" - get second move, get the "Foundary" get improved production, etc.). IF there is a move to do something it is certainly possible to have a very large 'verse for all of the folks wanting to play. Shoot, you could even mix the space fight(HW/HW2 and ground fight (DoW) and have a game as in depth as RTW...

**shudders at the thought**

Ammon Ra

NO to mixing unclean stuff into the homeworld universe.

I'm up for a persistant universe, possibly semi-MMO [the gap between 8 players and thousands of players per server], and that's what HW:Empires was about, inspired by the eariler scripts for hw2/dustwars.

The starfish are most likly derelict ships of the foes of the progenitor, and if they were to return, they'd butcher the rest of the civilizations.

Eitherway, i'm up for seeing a return of the Turanic raiders, and Taiidani in a hypothetical Game made by relic set in the Homeworld universe.

Norsehound

Of the Starfish:

I'd like to beleive they were gifts from the T-Mat to Makaan, since I like the idea of the T-mat being the starfish ships so much. I can also beleive that, with Makaan's death, his minions didn't know how to use the starfish ships properly and just ended up launching missiles with them.

Either way, the T-Mat and Bentusi don't like each other very much.

JAL-18

My point was one of the gates in the Aarron network could be named the China Gate, similiar to how you have a Nntao gate. If I were doing the map, I would probably also name one of them Tenhauser, after the mission in Homeworld which is called Tenhauser Gate.

Also, why is Balcora east of Hiigara? Balcora is at the center of the galaxy, and Hiigara is northeast of center.

Don't take this as critique of your work, I'm just trying to help you get as detailed and accurate map as possible. The Turanic clans stuff looks very interesting.

Norsehound

Not everything is set in stone so far, so changes are expected

So the gate itself is at the center of the galaxy? I thought the physical gate was located on the fringe of the center, and Sajuuk was located at it's dead center.

Huh. Tenhauser gate is the mission where you defend the bentusi against the Imperialist attack... I'll have to find out where that is and put a gate there. Maybe have to move Arran also... but then I always had the impression that the HS network needed some changes.