DormantRage

I know much hate has been going around for the Eldar but I feel the need to pour some Hatorade myself. On the ladder, I have little trouble with many opponents since I've gotten used to the gameplay. Eldar is the ONLY race that always gives me trouble unless played by a total noob. Props to those Eldar who don't exploit known bugs, but even with those fixed, the Eldar are still broke.

Explain to me how a couple basic squads can use entangle to completely own a hero, who does not even have the option of retreating. And if that's not bad enough, those same squads also have grenades, FoF, and some other buffs available to them.

Farseer is absolutely insane. How is it that she throws multiple squads through the air every few seconds? I'm about a 1400 on 1v1 so I know my gameplay, but these guys are rediculous. Talk to anyone who plays multiple races and they'll say how much easier it is to win with eldar.

SO MANY GOOD OPTIONS are available to them from the get go. You can use warp spiders for good things early on against any race though you may not need them later. Reapers are another solid early game for SM or CSM. Banshees can be used to great effect when micro'd right. OH! Let's not forget the guardians. The latest that I see is people just using mass guards with FS. Of course with all the abilities available to these puny bastards... why not!

I'm not saying they can't be beat. I am saying that, IMO, Eldar are imbalanced even without the bugs. It's alright that they have all those good options for counters and what not. They can be beat. But add in the cheese that I've seen from the FS and ENTANGLE and it becomes rediculous.

Anyway... there's my hate.

I do know that 1.1 is coming and can't wait to see how it helps. As it stands the F2 bug alone allows eldar an edge in most situations because CC is still risky.

Goatboy

With my new account I've played 27 games as of yet. I lost 3 of'm and all 3 against eldar. One of them was a lame bug abuser but the other ones just massed banshee squads and guardian squads. This was at around 4-5 min. I really had no idea what to do with that, turrets and upgraded lps just didnt last long enough. I'm not calling those people abusers, I'd just like to hear suggestions how i could hold off that rush onslaught...

pen

I just got owned because an eldar player went fast warp spiders. like my first batch of marines got as his warp spider destroyed every LP i had put up, and basically ran the entire map with em by teleing about and picking LPS and workers off.

SolidSnake3

I do find that yes, some parts of the Elder are broken but other things are more of a way to set them appart from other races. The SM can upgrade their Space Marines to four different weapons which are each effective against a different things. The Elder have an individual unit for each of those. For example the SM can upgrade to Plasma to counter heavy infantry and the Elder have the Dark Reaper unit which is basically the same thing.

Arkhayne

I know that lots of people still play with the counsil,or grenades..
I dont use either, and i can tell you that marines and Chaos are by far the thoughest oppponent for an eldar player.

can you rush anyone else with a FC and 2 tactical squad in the first minute of a game and have a real, serious chance of winning ?

to be able to survive eldar players h

Chris

I'd only agree with you on the point of entangle being imbalanced. I mean having multiple squads that can each freeze a hero or CC for 12 seconds is a little bit too harsh. Yeah the FS can throw units around all day long but her damage output isn't very high but she'll still beat a tactical squad in melee combat. Her area of effect animations are actually her weakness though. When she uses them she can't move which gives you time to get your FC in to whack her around for a bit... unless he's entangled of course.


I play mostly orks, but I also play SM/CSM/Eldar about as much as eachother. When I'm not using entangle I can still run rings around the enemy with Fleet Of Foot, if I use entangle it's simply a massacre.

I'd say reapers are a highly over-rated unit early game, mid game they make good support but early game thier setup time is too much of a liability.

Arkhayne

I know that lots of people still play with the counsil,or grenades..
I dont use either, and i can tell you that marines and Chaos are by far the thoughest oppponent for an eldar player.

can you rush anyone else with a FC and 2 tactical squad in the first minute of a game and have a real, serious chance of winning ?

to be able to survive eldar players have few options, entangle : basically buy time; of course eldar player will target the FC and hope his guardians will be enough to take down the hero and drive the 2 tac away.. , second options rush for the reapers : cost a lot and strongly reduce your initial choices (and you could not be able to buy the entangle+farseer too)
while the eldar commit every ressource to survival you can freely tech-up, produce more etc...
marines are good/ though/ and own most eldar infanterie...
I dont understant why so many people complains, everygame I play against a marines or chaos is really hard to win, let alone not get slaughtered in the first rush...

Ulthran

So, playing ranked matches, you beat everyone but Eldar easily. Sounds like SM are OP, compared to Chaos and Orks. And now you want to nerf Eldar so SM will be by far the best race in the game, and no one will ever make you work for a win again. And to the guy who got "rushed" with Warp Spiders: You're slow, spiders take a pretty long time to get numbers of. You should have had a few SM squads by them. And SM squads eat spiders.

If you are losing to an Eldar player who doesn't use bugs, its because he is better than you. And after the patch, that will be even more true, as Assault Marines will mess up Dark Reapers easily.

Lokust

I always get annoyed when people cry about entangle being overpowered. The cost to acquire and deploy it is more than fair for what it does.

the minimum you need to deal with a commander would be two guardian squads, and that's assuming ideal situation.
Thats 240 req
Then you need warlocks to actually cast entangle
Thats 110 req/30 power
But wait! you have to first build the soul shrine and research entangle
thats another 240 req/60 power (if my memory serves - numbers may be slightly off)

And people complain that about 590 req/90 power of units and upgrades can beat their 260r/85p commander.

Eldar units are fragile, so they tend to throw everything they have at anything powerful that comes their way, like a force commander, because otherwise he will tear them up. It's not like the farseer can stand up to a force commander and have any hope of surviving. In a stand up fight, marines will beat guardians easily. Go for smaller squads of marines so that even if a couple squads get tied up in melee, you still have good shooty troops doing damage. USE YOUR FRAG GRENADES! They may not be as strong as plasma currently is, but they are still great for doing damage to the enemy while stopping their damage output. Banshees will still beat your troops in CC, but they will hold out for a while. If you use your other squads to focus on guardians, the guardians will die quickly enough for you to turn your bolter fire on the banshees. One of the key weaknesses of eldar units is morale (really a weakness of everyone but SM). A couple scout squads with snipers can work wonders. In the worst case scenario, they will work as magnets for banshee squads and plasma grenades while your bolters do the real damage.

Chris

Actually if you're going to take into accout the SS etc. you have to take into account the cost of the space marine barracks to build the FC, which would make the FC 510req/85p

For a difference in only 80req and 5 power, entangle guardians wont just beat the FC, they'll massacre him.

Critta

But then you should have 2x squads of tactical marines and some scouts... may I ask what they will do to either the guardians or the farseer ?!?

I get the feeling it's somewhat of a massacre...

Chris

FS > tac marines.

Scouts about on par with guardians, depending on how much the squads are reinforced.

Soulrender

Ahem, the eldar counter squads, bypass space marine tactical squads with the approciate weapon upgrades by far, lets take the dark reapers, when they deployed, theres NO ABSOLUTELY NO heavy infantry whom will survive, its a hail of destruction, the warp spiders bypass heavy bolters too, and so on, but hey im still not saying eldar is like imbalanced even with conceal and plasma grenade fixed, i think they are fair enough without the bugs ofc :P, but my just turn that etangle just abiit down =/, its kinda exterminating everything whom tries to flee

Lokust

Now you're just being silly, Chris. Factor in Chapel Barracks cost when I didn't figure in Aspect Portal cost? Fine. Add in another 100 for the Aspect portal then, plus 100-120 for the first aspect stone and you're about even. The Barracks has more HP too, for whatever that's worth. Not to mention that once the barracks is up you can start a FC immediately. Eldar has to then build the soul shrine (60 sec) and then tech conceal from it (also a long time) and buy a couple warlocks to have the ability to deal with an FC.

What else are the Eldar supposed to do? sit there and die? dance while they get cut up by bolter fire? When I play Eldar, as soon as I see I'm not facing Eldar, I start teching entangle.

POPS-[true]-

this has been said millions of times, but when it comes to flamers, the Eldar just break, they have practically ziltch moral. So if entangle isnt used, the eldar have to sit there and get broken by the flamers instead of using their only defence against them? The entangle is merely the eldar protecting themselves from one of the most elite armies in the universe! Therefore instead of complaining, either retreat and attack again, or hit em hard "first". Again it merely boils down to tactics in battle and not the size of the army you can produce in your base.

Chris

You counted everything that is needed to tech to guardians with entangle. I counted everything that needed to tech to force commander. Why is that silly?

Perfect_Weapon

IOf entangle & dead FC is getting you down - you could always try using a pair of scout squads with sniper rifles to instantly (or near as damnit) break the guardians - thus knackering their damage...

You cant seriously expect to play a RTS and use one tactic ALL the time and never have it stoppable...

pen

No the thing is yes, I had squads of marines out, but the warp spiders would just take out at listening post, uncapture it, then tele out before my guys could get there. So asi tried to chase em away from my LPS, he was capturing his own natural ones and putting up lps, which led to em raping me because he had so many more resources.

SubZero

Translation of negative comments on this thread :

I use my same old build order + same old strategy, and ONLY tactic against my opponents but it doesn't work well against Eldar who have hundreds of build orders and tactics and i don't win. So i think Eldar are overpowered as nothing should be able to stop my FC + 2 Tactical Squad Rush.

DormantRage

Arkhayne - of course your only trouble is SM and CM. It doesn't make SM and CM imba; it just means you can give any ork early game panic with warp spiders. Ironically WS can also be used to give other players angina until they get heavy infantry... oh yeah and then they have to catch the teleportin buggers.

Chris - you see my point plainly enough in regards to entangle... I don't have a problem with the skill, but for a squad-based skill it lasts entirely TOO LONG.

Ulthran - you're being facetious. I don't own ladder but the race that is always rediculous to beat is Eldar. Many of the eldar players I talk with in game say how much easier it is to use them. (that's not just me) Oh and the guy who got rushed by spiders isn't slow. That's a good strat that can be difficult to deal with early game because they can fart in the general direction of scouts and they die a horribly agonizing yet quick death. About the BUGS: I give props to those Eldar who don't use bugs, though I will say that many times when I actually do start to beat them... POOF! Seer Council! That's funny...

Final Thought: My biggest problem right now with the Eldar is the combination of their plethora of options available to them. IMO Entangle time should be decreased, especially, against hero units. (Eg. WarcraftIII featured decrease spell effects on heroes) The FarSeer seems to have a rediculous cool down for the attack that sends everyone flying. I have at least one replay saved of her pwning FC+2Reinforced Tac Squads with only an unreinforced Reaper squad as support. And I don't mean beating I mean nothing whatsoever could be done. Relic also needs to fix the "bonesong" I think it's called. You should not be able to make any building on the map near invincible. When you choose that ability it shows a circle but you don't have to use it in the circle. Anyway, that's all for now. I think I'm gonna go play around with the Heretics so I can better know my enemy, the Eldar.

Most importantly, thanks for all the discussion. I appreciate everyone's effort to increase our competitiveness in this game. I look forward to re-examing the balance post-patch 1.1

GG all.

DormantRage

Oh yeah! And WTF is up with the melee prowess of the Bonesinger... and it's ability to teleport into my base on Outer Reaches???!!!!! Sorry, that one's been eating at me.

ripsta87

OMFG i luv SPace Marines players who whine as much as u guys PLS LET ME LICK YOUR TEARS YOUR SWEEET SWEEET TEARS!!!

OMFG ROFL seriously the eldar are weak in armour compared to space marines and CMS's and SM/CSMs get WEAPON UPGRADES!, wich kan make them even more effective against the eldar guardians or DR's etc. how do the eldar compensate for weak fire power and armor?...warlocks... warlock has the ability to use entangle, and the FoF is the result of their light armor. it's very simple guys just stop crying unless i'm nearby to lick your sweet tears.

Perfect_Weapon

My god...

I am actually finding myself agreeing with GZ here...

*faints*

Soulfreezer

You realise that this attack cannot be done by the player manualy? The FS does it on her own, and if she does it while you try to run away from a FC he'll catch up and own her in the evil stunlock of death.
And how can FS + 3 reapers ever beat FC + 16 SM? You win this even if you go *select all - move attack*
Unless you are trying to chase a FoF FS with your FC and have your SM trying to meele her while the reapers shoot your SM to pieces you cannot lose.


You think some SM/CM/Ork players wouldn't do the same if they had their own bugged invincible uberunit? Honestly, how many good losers have you seen in this game? And if all fails they still can whine about F2 abuse even if you didn't use it at all.
People only abusing bugs when they are going to lose are not better than any other abusers.

Crazyjose

I do acknowledge that Eldar are a tuff opponenet, but wheres the bleeding heart for the scout rush, or for the unstoppable Ork rush.

If ppl keep getting owned and they keep doing the same thing, do something diff, ive played eldar, and i lost vs them. But ive also played eldar and ive won vs them.

Id have to say my biggest non bug bitch would be the upgraded eldar turrets IMO they are too strong and dominate anything. I saw 6 las cannon preds attack like 6 or 7 upgraded turrets and get rocked IMO thats way too strong.

Gaurdians are ranged, as are SM, so entangle will only force the range, just cuz ur unattached FC cant hammer some skinny pointy head doesnt mean ur gonna lose. Find a tatic that works vs eldar instead of the same FC and 2 full SM squads.

Soulfreezer

Driving around those cannons without shooting or how can a las Pred lose to a d-cannon?
And if it's bonesong (which is bugged btw):
Move back, wait 30 sec, attack again and kill them all within seconds. Problem solved.
d-cannon without bonesong doesn't stand a chance against a las Pred.
LR kills a bonesonged d-cannon without much problems, so a las Pred should still be able to do the same.

Chris

Eldar have the best firepower in the game, thank you very much. They don't need to compensate for anything.

Weak armour? Yeah definately weak armour.... but weak firepower? Hell no.

DormantRage

GroundZero - you're just being retarded about this "I only use one strat" BS. Nobody here said they only use one strat. I'm a 1400+ player and only that low because I try various things. I too have beaten the Eldar, but in the hands of two good players, an Eldar will most likely beat an SM. Perhaps when the bugs are fixed.

Bottomline: don't be an ass by your so-called translation. It's a sad attempt at flaming. Maybe all the SMs you face use one strat but alot of us don't. BTW the SM don't have even close to the number of solid early game options as Eldar do.

About the FS thing I saw: I've checked other replays and have not found any replication of that behavior. During ONE game, however, the FS was insane as I described. Maybe it was a glitch in her cooldown. I have not seen it since.

CrazyJose - I see your point for sure. As I said in my original post, I don't usually roll out the hate. People cry imba over scouts but they are very counterable, by Eldar most of all. (warp spiders) The ork rush is crazy against SM or CSM, but not... guess who... Eldar! The whole game needs some balance tweaking and will have to wait and see where we're left after the patch. The biggest change will not come with the Eldar, but with the F2 fix. That will change the game. I expect a shift in hate towards the ork. Though, banshees and PSM will also strongly benefit as they're CC specialists.

To boil it down: bonesong and other Bugs have set me against the Eldar, especially those who exploit the bug purposefully.