Robert Frazer

After reviewing with considerable interest a recent thread about the nature of the daemonic entity unleashed by the shattering of the Maledictum in the climax to Dawn of War which evolved into quite a detailed and scholarly discussion upon the identity of Chaos Undivided and a champion's ascent (descent?) into daemonhood, when a thought occured to me that I believe could pose an interesting topic for debate.

We all are aware that the Chaos Gods reside in the Warp, and that the daemons they control are manifestations of Warp energy. We also recognise that the Emperor's spirit is also roving through the Warp, continuously battling against Chaos to prevent the galaxy from being devoured.

This then led me to the following query. If we accept that the Emperor as an immaterial entity has at least limited mastery over the Warp, does that mean that he is capable of manipulating the Warp to conceive his own 'daemons' - or, to be more appropriate, angels?

An interesting exemplar here would be The Legion of the Damned. According to extant fluff, it is rumoured (i.e. it is) that the Legion of the Damned are none other than the Fire Hawks, an Ultramarines Successor Chapter that was lost in the Warp. Perhaps this should be an example of the Emperor utilising his arcane influence to create such angels - taking pity on the ignoble fate of the Fire Hawks (their fateful jump was only supposed to last a few hours) he utilises his powers to spirit away the Fire Hawks as their ships are rent asunder and then imbue them as his agents of unearthly retribution, coelescing and dissolving just as easily as daemons do themselves.

And, you have to admit, incardanine manifestations of Justice, Piety, Wrath and Stolidness would make a r()><[]r1337|\|355 new product line from Games Workshop!

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Drachenfels

The Emperor/The Starchild/the White has some power in the warp, and therefore magic. But not as much as the chaos powers, since they feed on negative emotions, of which there are far more in the galaxy then good feelings.

Cynical Rabbit

Firehawks are Cursed Founding btw. Yes, it mentions angels in various fluff, divine miracles.

BamOBrien

Haha...yeah...page-long posts between me, =][= Ball, and Kaoslord, talk about over-the-top drawn-out nerd fest.


I wouldn't doubt it, as I understand the Imperial Cult believes that righteous citizens unite with the Emperor after death, maybe there is some truth to this in the warp; allowing the Emperor to drawn upon the faith of Humanity and maybe even gather precious few positive warp energies that float into the warp before such energies are overwhelmed by the Chaos Powers.



I agree such utilization is possible, but I doubt the Fire Hawks are a case of such favour or pity. The Legion of the Damned is afflicted with a seemingly incurable warp-disease that slowly destroys the flesh of its brother-marines, hence their obsession with death motiffs and suffering; it seems unlikely that "angels" in the service of the Emperor would be bestowed such a terrible curse along with their formidable phase-shifting blessing by a benevolent master. Instead the Legion of the Damned, to my understanding, is driven by their staunch loyalty to the Imperium, wishing to take as many of the Emperor's enemies with them to the grave as possible before they are totally overcome by their affliction, though I am still open to the idea that perhaps such an ominous and inevitable fate may be the Emperor's method of encouraging these warriors to push to their limits before ultimately re-uniting with the Starchild in the warp after their deaths.

Of course the whole "humans go to the Emperor after they die" concept may be entirely incorrect as well.

Zatrais

The problem is that the Emperor really isn't cohesive enough in the warp to do that. He's kinda stuck in limbo atm, somewhat alive (albeit just barely, a few cells here and there) and not totally released into the warp.

Thats kinda the big question about humans in 40k, when the Emperor finaly is released fully into the warp what happens then. Or alternativly what would happen if the faction in the inquisition thats working towards having him ressurected succeds.

However, assuming the Emperor got released completely into the warp and assumed the form of a full flung warp god he'd have no problems doing what the Chaos gods do and more most likely.

Cailet

Used to be in FB that there were angels that were basically Daemons that fed on positive emotion. I would guess that they are rare and generally weak but they do exist.

Hmmmm, now you've got me thinking of ANOTHER army to try out.

Damn.

Zukov

Though are 'possitive' emotions really that rare in the 40k universe? Surely basic altruism and intra family love are refered to in the 40k fluff.And those are at least as prevailant as the emotions meant to feed the 'evil' powers.

Brother Armand

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

By definition, the 40K universe is dark, filled with pain and suffering and generally unpleasant. So much war, bloodshed and animosity cannot leave much room for basic altruism. Mankind is in a fight for their very lives and souls. Either you are a warrior meeting death on your feet or you are a sheep waiting for death on your knees. You are either a hero or a coward, but ever present is war and all the negative emotions it entails.

The Collector

The bunk theory goes that "good" emotions are stronger then "evil" ones.

FerociousBeast

I don't think the Emperor can have angels like the Chaos gods can have daemons. This is simply because the Emp is not the same sort of entity that the Chaos gods are. The Chaos gods were created when enough of a similar emotion coalesced in the warp to begin gaining power and eventually sentience. Daemons are avatars of that power. The Emperor, however, is a real individual, and whose prime existence once was the material world. Therefore, due to the fundamental difference between the two kinds of being, I don't think any simple "Khorne is to Bloodthirster what Emperor is to ______" analogy would work.

However, I am not saying that good daemons cannot exist. Just that they wouldn't be bound to the Emperor as baddies are to the Chaos powers.

Concerning the Legion of the Damned, as has been said, the source of their power is an awful insanity producing disease which just so happens to also make its victims more powerful before they die. Usually whenever disease or plague are mentioned in 40K, Grandpa Nurgle is lurking somewhere nearby.

Brother Lucius

There are in a way, Angels, representatives of the Emporers Power.

The Kensai. Who...well, I can't remember where the hell they came from, really.

BamOBrien

The Sensai (?) are either the Emperor's manifestations in real space, such as Saint Sebastian Thor, who have been imbued with his power or resolve or the Emperor's own children, his direct descendants who share part of his genetic perfection. I don't know if either those classify them as angels...but to some stretch I suppose the argument is valid.

FerociousBeast

The sensei are descendants of the Emperor who have inherited part of his incredible power. My understanding is that blessed people like Thor, unless happening to be also sensei, are not otherwise. And neither would make them angels. Daemons swim around in the warp and require a warp nexus in the real world for them to exist, so theoretically so must an angel. Sensei run around willy-nilly with no regard for the warp, thus they are not angels. And if being merely blessed by the emperor was enough to make someone an angel, then every Chaos Lord with at least one daemonic gift would also have to be classified as a daemon.

Brother Lucius

True, but the Kensai are the closest thing the Emporer's got...

General Stukov

dude is your S key broke? they already told you it was Sensai... and its my understanding of what I've read that the Emperor is hiding in the warp right now till his body is finally released

I've also been reading my 3rd ed rulebook and found an interesting thing that might shed some light on this good and evil thing of the warp

"Sentient energies and other immaterial lifeforms dwell within it: creatures formed from and sustained by the shifting energies of the warp. Few are friendly; most are predatory and hostile. These entities thrive on the thoughts and emotions of those who dwell in the material universe..."

Something cool to note is Worlds where the two dimensions of the Immaterium and the Materium exsist in the same area are quite interesting.. here's an example..

"Those that do speak of a nightmare region where nature and physics are forgotten, and madness and confusion reign. They speak of worlds whose skies burn with fire, of planets seething with seas and rivers of blood, disc-shaped worlds, heavenly bodies with screaming faces and other tormented features shaped by the merest whim of the powerful deities that are formed from Chaos."

Some know these as chaos born worlds in which case it is amazing to note how ethreal these things actually are... It gives rise to a whole new understanding of exsistance...

I was thinking of making a chaos terrain board... would be quite crazy to see, no?

chocolate

I would guess that the Emperors "white" magic manifests in a different way... raising up the human spirit if you will. Example: * Imperial Guardsmen cowering in a bunker on Cadia as the Lost and the Damned close in* "Were all going to die man" and then suddenly... "Hey, guys, if were going to go down, lets take a few million with us! Hell yeah! LETS KICK SOME ASS!" *charges*

General Stukov

Sorry to say it but that has nothing to do with the emperor's love juice... (aka 'white' magic) thats just the human spirit, heck if anyone was in a war and they were gonna die they'd take out as many as they could... just the human psychie compinsating for its realization of its impending loss...

chocolate

Let me rephrase that; the Emperor's *spirit* manifests not in a physical way, but in a spiritual one (in other words, rekindling courage, a will to fight, and all that jazz).

Unforgiven1977

That's not really true. Some would try to surrender. Some would cowar and die. Some would fall to their knees and pray. Some might crack open a beer. There are alot of different reactions people could have in a situation like that.
I'm not saying it's the Emperor's divine spirit that causes men to fight to the death or anything. It's merely one of many ways one might respond to their impending doom.

There could very well be warp gods that feed on positive emotion. But why would a god of happiness represent itself on a battlefield? No place for happiness there. And what form would it take on even if it did? Cute little kittens that could spew forth rainbows on the enemy.

A battlefield is certainly an appropriate place for the chaos gods however. While there may be more 'positive' aspects to war such as honor, valor, duty, amongst other things. These things aren't emotions.

As far as the Emperor sending 'angels' into battle I don't really know. It's left to speculation, but I suppose he'd be able manifest something to assist his forces. In a lesser form than by creating demons of course.

General Stukov

heh... soldiers that were trained as soldiers that have the option to fight or die the majority would fight, you put it in a context of an ordinary citizen... Its not the case with a soldier, you were there, you have accepted you might die but when you finally realize it you will take as many of the enemy as you can with you.. plain and simple



Its the beliefs of the soldier that the emperor's spirit is watching over them, just as holy warriors believe their god is watching over them as they fight in his name weither their god is actually listening or not is irrelevent as they still believe he is... it is their beliefs that give them vigor to carry on in battle..

Very few soldiers in the imperium can actually claim that the spirit of the emperor is with them and usually those are the Grey Knights..

chocolate

So... you agree with me?

KingKupo

perhaps the emperor's power(AKA positive warp energy) can be summoned in some way. Take the anointed weapon and the deamonhammer for example. when used against a normal foe, they are just normal weapons but when used against a deamonic one they suddenly become very potent weapons.

We also have that faith thingy of the SoB that can make them have invulnerable saves, wich could mean that SoB can draw upon the emperor's power, wether knowing or unknowing, with their prayers.

cfoley

All human emotions have a warp presence, bad and good. The difference is that humans who have turned away from the emperor worship chaos gods. In return, the gods promise power, bestow gifts and allow them to summon daemons.

Let's say that there IS a god of happiness. The kittens are therefore minions of that god and not the emperor. Since "good" humans worship the emperor and not the god of happiness, they would never summon the kittens.

Humans also have a warp presence, but it is different from the warp presence of emotions. The emperor is not an emotion. He cannot be a god. He simply has the same warp presence as an ordinary human, albeit unimaginably more powerful.

Thousand_Guns

Are we missing something here? Since there being no clear cut good and evil is a big part of the 40k world (is the Imperium the protector and Chaos an invader or is the Imperium the oppressor and Chaos the liberator?) and even the Chaos gods are supposed to have a good side (Khorne is supposed to be a god of honor and protection as well slaugher, and who doesn't like Slaanesh's pleasure even if we hate his excess?).

I don't own any type of chaos codex, so maybe there's a direct contradiction in one of those, but what if "daemons" are just "warp beings" who, if enough positive-type emotions of their "alignment" (like more people protecting others instead of bullying them, for Khorne's Bloodletters) are expressed, can become "angels?"

As for "what of the Emperor?" I believe (and think about it for a moment) that he could be charlatan. Not truly a God, but just a very powerful human. All the myths surrounding him are just myths, or maybe he's somewhat like the Kwisatz Haderach (long time since I read Dune) who is godlike, but only due to completely normal genetics. Even modern humans know how to breed for a certain trait in animals or plants (or people... O.o) and that's just a step up from our technology.

Maybe the Emperor is a whole new "God" if he is indeed divine in some way. Maybe he is the manifest of another emotion, aside from what the Chaos Gods already have dibs on. He's just unlike any other warp "God" because the Emperor is still semi-living, so he can't make "angels"