Wu Jen

After reading a couple of threads and people complaining about Hero abuse - Is it possible to have it so that a hero that is just built comes out as if he/she/it had just used all of their special abilities? This would still allow the hero unit to be useful in combat i.e. tanking but would not allow the spamming of special ablities i.e. hero dies then is rebuilt faster than he/she/it would normally regenerate the abilites. It might actually make people want to keep their hero's alive!

Anyhow just a thought.

RangerJoe

hero selfkill abuse is only a problem with the FC and his orbital bombardment.
other races haven´t much use of selfkilling the hero.

adding this feature would only give a greate handicap to eldar players in early game cause the farsers CC or Ranged Damage is nuts

but it a good idea if there´s only a global timer for these late game abilitys like orbital bombardment is.

as a example
FC makes OB recharge time is 120sec (is it ? )
FC get deleted by player immdatly after the ob
FC gets rebuild, build time 60sec ( is it ? i dont play sm )
so after the FC is build again it should still take 60sec till the OB is ready again.

that would be a good solution for OB spam, or other late game ability spam but i never saw a eldar spawnin eldritsh storm

SubZero

Orb Recharge is more like 3-5mins, build time is more like 50-70secs. I dont know for sure, but i can get alot done whilst hes building.

Perfect_Weapon

pretty sure orks can have a field day killing docs and spamming FJ since they can get 4 of the buggers

Chris

Not really, you can abuse special abilities with any hero, it's just that orbital bombardment overshadows the other abilities for obvious reasons.

GRIM Ripper

i dont think you can really call any other ability spam besides orbital "abuse" bc nothing else is worth the price of killing your hero, not even eldritch storm. what are you going to do, delete your big mek just so you can throw an extra super stikkbomb? i seriously doubt it. you certainly wont delete the CL for anything, and the farseer, while possessing great abilities, are mostly for support for right then and there and arent great stand alone abilites like orbital bombardment is (eldritch is good vs buildings and vehicles yeah, but still not good enough to warrant killing and rebuying her just for that). i think the best idea is having a global 5 minute timer for orbital bombardement.

Rapier

I'd like to see heroes toned down myself. I think they're too strong. (I'd like to see a damage reduction) make them healthier, so that they can tank, but not so scary, then you have more support, without them being the focus of early encounters. The TT heroes aren't as a rule so much tougher than normal guys (apart from Special Characters).

TBS

this would seriously hurt the farseer - she relies on her powers being ready as soon as shes built in the early game. It would probably be best if this was applied to OB only since thats the only ability thats really abused...oh and maybe fightin' juice.

Chris

Mad Docs with fighting juice. (technically not heros but still have a clickable ability)

Chaos Sorceror.

Both very spammable. The Sorceror is slightly less spammable however, since the structure he is built from is used for other things, like researching hero upgrades.

Dymo

For the OB issue maybe a compromise?

How about a bit wider blast area with a bit tighter splash radius as well as only give 6-7 vs the current 10(?) bolts (or whatever they call them bright blasty thingys?)

If you nerf the OB then the Avatar Pop increase needs a hit as well. It is only fair right?

SubZero

I don't see the corellation?
Is Orbital Strike only used against Eldar?

Orbital Strike is NOT the Space Marines relic unit, therefore nothing should happen to balance this change out with other races Relic Units.

GRIM Ripper

spamming does not equal abuse. it CAN as in the case of orbital bombardment and maybe using fighting juice on heros, but not necessarily. and we're talking about heros here chris... if all units started off having to recharge their abilities, things like melta bombs, tankbusta bombs, grenades, etc would suck majorly. fighting juice is an issue of its own (if even an issue at all...), and the sorceror doesnt have good enough abilities to make spamming him be ABUSE. you can delete and rebuild him him all you want, if you want to invest that much time and money for a few doombolts... thats not abuse, its just stupid.

Chris

I'm still on the fence when it comes to the issue of the Sorc being spammable. The sorc can single handedly turn a battle around with his doombolt which almost always insta-breaks enemy squads and chains of torment that can entangle MULTIPLE squads if you target it correctly. He costs only 150/50 and builds in roughly 15 seconds... that is a BARGAIN. Chains Of Torment costs 50/40, which again is very cheap.

To be honest I don't think the sorceror is over powered or anything like that, but he's excellent value for money and highly underestimated by both chaos players and their enemies. Over powered? No. Potentially spammable... definately.

Dymo

The correlation? Both have an affect on the gameplay that many consider... profound.

Just to make it even then. The BT should be shorter while LR's should be taller. There everyone wins.

SubZero

*sigh* now you're just being childish!

Lets just be serious for a moment, give Space Marines Emperor titans and be done with it.

Rapier

The problem with discussing relic units, as I see it, is that everyone goes from a different basis. If you consider the Squiggoth as the "base" you might say the Avatar is roughly equal, the Orbital not spammed, is equal, and the Bloodthrister is weak. (I'm putting in arbitrary values not considered assessments)

But if you consider the power of the Avatar, you may instead say, this Relic unit hugely benefits your army, It's easily the strongest, all other Relic units should be at that level. Well, there, you have a different Relic unit, with different abilities different assessments. (The Avatar is the best imo btw, but the Squiggoth is comparable).

Quizango

Really sorry to be a spanner but PLEASE don't use an apostrophe with a plural 's' as in the title of this thread. It is *always* incorrect.

Fitz

Quizango, this is a gaming forum, not a spelling bee. Whilst we do ask people to use coherent english and avoid using 1337sp34|<, the misplacement of an apostrophe is not a crime against humanity.

Please in future when posting in a strategy forum, concentrate on strategy, not grammar.

Rapier

Won't you feel bad if the guy speaks English as a second language or has dyslexia or any number of other possibly explanations for such a minor error. You could really upset him pointing out something like that. Some people just don't think.

Edit: And after posting this I went back to see what else there was I could comment on, but the last post is mine.

Snidely

Just have it so that hero abilities are on a global timescale. This means that, assuming OB takes 5 minutes to recharge, and FC takes 1 minute to build:

FC casts OB. Player recycles FC. FC is rebuilt 1 minute after OB was cast. FC has to wait another 4 minutes before OB is available.

That way, there's no benefit to recycling a hero.

FJ is a different matter, IMO, since it's a unit power, not a hero one.

Chris

So Spamming fighting juice is OK because Mad Docs arn't heros? That's quite a huge double standard in my opinon.

Dymo

Not really GZ. I ended my first post with a little silly icon to show my intent as opposed to your post, which was basically... anal and in need of social graces to say the least.

If you wish to take everything you read to heart be my guest but childish is one thing I am not and making such statements does not bode well for future discussions.

The point being that both features, of both units, are strong. Would you disagree with that?

GRIM Ripper

no chris, its debateable whether fighting juice ok or not (no one has said it is ok or not yet i dont think), but the thread is about hero abilities, and the mad dok is not a hero.

IF something was wrong with FJ, it would require a different solution than hero ability (namely orbital) spam would require in my opinion.

Killalot

FJ can be considered a hero ability, it's mostly used on hero's anyway, such as a Mega-Blasta using Big Mek. How about making it a research? Maybe after 60 pop?

Rapier

FJ cannot be on a global timer, because you make 4 Docs if it was global then having more than one would be pretty useless ~ fighting juice would need a buff.

However the max of one limit on heroes means a global timer could be used to solve any potential spam (and all potential spam) on the heroes, by implimenting a universal change.

psychodil

Most people agree that FJ should automatically be cast on the squad the dok is attached to, so it cant be used on heros. This makes it less micro too.

anyway, sorry to go off topic...

Demon_Eyes

To recap the core of the problem -

Orbital Bombardment: long recharge.

Force Commander: short buildtime compared to OB recharge.

Orbital Relay: allows semi-instant transport of FC to location.

This is a unique situation in that other commanders abilities recharge nearly as fast as they build after the commander upgrades.