Mirage Knight

To sum up for those who are new to this mod, Dawn of Warhammer 40K (formerly known as Rebirth: Codex Edition) is meant for those who want a proper multiplayer Warhammer 40K RTS as opposed to an RTS based on the W40K Universe. As such, the mod is vastly different from older iterations. Note that this mod is strictly multiplayer-oriented and does not support single player campaigns. Also keep in mind that the AI is a WIP

The basic idea is that all units and weapon upgrades cost req and buildings, with the exception of HQ’s, Power Gens, and LP’s, cost power. In addtion, weapons like Power Klaws and Lascannons which punch through infantry saves with panache in TT will do exactly that in this mod. Almost everything has been converted over. Toughness / Wounds to HP...armour and invulnerable saves...weapon Strength vaules...even points to req costs.

With this system it’s far easier to add in and balance new units and weapons - and every unit feels like it’s worth every point spent on it.

The first Beta release for DoW Rebirth: Codex Edition can be found here.

The second Beta can be found here.

Beta 3 can be found here.

And the most current and best release is right here! A mirror can be found on DoW Files here as well.

The more feedback we get, the better DoW40k will be. Speaking of which, please follow this link to report any bugs.

If anyone would like to contribute their modelling, coding, or texturing skills to this mod, PM Hybris, n0z3k1ll3r or myself.

Now get playing

Elof

Personally i hope you keep the balance changes you made to weapons Mirage Knight, including the fixes across the range to even damages out as well as the squad chages

Mirage Knight

Most of the weapon fixes and tweaks I had implemented and have planned will be in.

Which squad tweaks were you talking about?

Elof

I was talking about the Cultist and scout fixes you had implemented , sorry squad might have been confusing

The main points were the weapon balances and some of the cost changes i found really good , the lowering of reinfocment times and things

The changes to ork mob sizes as well , since i seem to be playing green skins alot more lately

One other thing have you considered implementing a proper devestator squad , im not sure if it was part of the fluff fixes noz did in his mod or not , i never could understand how relic could justify the way they fleshed out tac squads the way they did , when it would have been easy enough to limit tacs to 2 heavy weapon upgrades and just make a 5 man devestator squad

oh are you going to implement noz's limits on dreadnaughts ?

Obtuse

'Scuse me if I'm being bloody ignorant, but from what I've seen it's a helluva lot easier to just have a customisable tactical squad rather than making extra units to do things that can already be done with existing stuff. My two cents. From what I've played of the rebalance mods they're pretty good, so I look forward to seeing what the finished result is.

n0z3k1ll3r

Mirage Knight already added a Devastator/Havoc squad to the mix. Expensive 4 man squad that all start with heavy bolters, upgradeable to MLs.

Dreadnoughts we're taking a look at tinkering with... if we can get a modeller we can get a Dreadnought that starts with an Autocannon and a powerfist. It can upgrade the AC to a second powerfist or a lascannon, or upgrade the first powerfist to a Missile Launcher. That way the Hellfire and normal Dread are combined into one troop type. Problem is we need someone to make a new Hellfire ML model for the standard dreadnought.

Elof

I agree it might be easier Shmeep and alot more flexible but its not very authentic

i meant the 3 max limit personally i enjoyed it more with limits to vechiles like dreadnaughts and predators , i allways saw sm as being infantry with a few armoured aditions , maybe something along the line of lower cap on armour and a higher cap on infantry ? but thats just me

Mirage Knight

Elof: We're tinkering around with the idea of making scouts take up 2 pop now but having them reinforcable to 5 members instead of 4. They'll still have Tactical Bolters, 200 HP and build time will be about 7-8 seconds. Cost will remain the same and my previous treatment with regard to weapon upgrades (1 with Armory and then 2 after researching Max Weapons) will be in.

We're also considering doing something fairly radical with Cultists. 2 pop 12 man squad upgradable to 15. 33 hp with a 2 second reinforce time and a cost of 5 req. 3 special weapons with construction of an Armoury and an extra 2 with completion of Max Weapons research. Their laspistols are getting a fix: double the AP they used to have vs infantry armor and they'll now have AP vs heavy_medium and heavy_high (previously they didn't do squat to regular Marines - angry flashlights indeed...). Grenade Launcher damage however will be reduced by half to deal with potential grenade spamming. The increase number of weapon slots will also make plasma more useful to Chaos players.

This way Cultists are far better meat shields that can really tie up enemies until reinforcements arrive. This should help Chaos players early game.

Any other ideas are welcome

Mirage Knight

Just a quick post to let you guys know about what we're thinking of doing with Mad Doks and Apothecaries.

Mad Doks tentatively will have a build time of 20 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds. The ability to temporarily render Ork Mobs temporarily unkillable seems to warrant it.

Apothecaries, by the same measure, with have their build time increased to 15 seconds from 6 seconds.

komninosm

Are you planning on making the FJ of Doks require less micro by making it affect the squad he is currently in?

BTW, I think aspect warriors could use a bit more morale or a leader that actually increases morale and morale regen like all other leaders.

If you manage to make that change to the Dread, how about including my suggestion for the Wraithlord. Starting with no weapon (but very slightly cheaper) and having the choice to upgrade to either a BL or Starcannon. I've already done the coding necessary and even posted it in some other thread.
Similar deal with the Falcon.

Oh and did you discuss the Havoc squad missile launcher excessive costs with Noze yet?

Cheers.

EDIT: I want to state my disagreement with the cultist proposal. A whole squad could be lost with a single artillery shot, or mega blasta, or a stray nade (frag or few grenade launchers). There's so much wrong with that idea to comment. Hell even grots are more durable than that.
Besides, I know who's behind it and I don't like him :-p
BTW, I don't know what you're talking about cultist laspistols not damaging regular marines. They worked just fine against anything since their min_damage_value was 2.5, which was 50% of what they would do if they had 100% penetration. In fact they barely did more damage to light than heavy troops (55%).

I can just imagine the cries when the Farseer does her very large AoE attack and kills every single cultist on sight.
I'm sorry to say this is the silliest idea I heard about cultists.
On top of all this, the kill anim thing already angers or makes a lot of people think. This will only worsen it.
Cultists should be scaled up not down, if scaled at all.

Mirage Knight

komninosm: We'll discuss the idea of making FJ a click and forget ability (like Word of the Emperor) rather than click - find squad - click again. We'll also look into morale regen from leaders for Eldar as well as Tactical Missile upgrade costs for Devastator Squads.

With regard to your take on Cultists - it's just an idea we're kicking around and may or may not make it to final release. As I said, the list isn't cast in stone and can (and probably will) change before we release anything. That's what this thread is for; to see who wants to see what in this mod and why. If you have a much better idea for Cultists - or for anything - we really want to hear it

You'll be happy to know that a certain Volley Ability will more than likely make it in as a Tier 3 ability for Whirlwind Artillery Tanks We're considering making it an ability you can toggle on and off like FoF.

On another note, we want some modellers and texture artists onboard. It's not just for our Dreadnaught issue: We are also desperate to get Dire Avengers ingame so that we can more properly fluff out and balance out Eldar Aspect Warriors. Fire Dragons and Swooping Hawks would also be nice, but that can wait.

Here's what we want to do with Eldar troops:

Buff Rangers so that squad size can come down to 4 members max.

Introduce Dire Avengers as a more powerful basic troop choice for Eldar - they'd be halfway between Guardian Squads and Space Marine Tactical Squads in terms of ranged / CC abilities, stats, and cost. More than likely we would make them available after completion of the Aspect Portal.

Make Banshees and Warp Spiders more like the Elite Choices they are in TT, meaning only one squad of each would be allowed on the field of battle at any time. They would however be buffed a bit in certain areas to compensate.

Make Dark Reapers a Heavy Support choice by either bringing up their pop to 3 (from 2) or by restricting the number of squads a player can field at any time. I'd rather impose a higher pop and make their weapons a bit better, and then give the Reaper Exarch a more powerful Shuriken Cannon upgrade than what we have in already. The Exarch's Reaper Cannon is now by default slightly better than the regular Reaper Cannon.

n0z3k1ll3r

Komninosm: The cultists tend to be too large a squad to die to a single artillery shot/grenade as things stand. A second one usually will polish them off, but for a squad that cheap something needs to be able to kill them. I mostly wanted them to be a meatshield for Chaos early on to counteract somewhat the problems with chaos needing to alter their builds against different opponents (it happens with other races but chaos suffer the most due to a lack of real scouting). Plus they do survive Farseer AoE, and actually believe it or not survive Psy Storm BETTER (larger squad often means a few members survive, and then they reinforce almost immediately). The squad actually becomes more durable and, in my opinion, more "fluffy" than before.

frank40k

I would like to give a few suggestions for eldar.
i like nozekiller's idea for making the plats upgradeable for the guardian squad.Another thing, i read the changes your gonna make and i have to say it's good but, i have a problem with two things: 1) i don't think limiting the aspect warrior to just one squad is such a good idea, doing that would really criple the eldar army, unless you make them extremely good than i could understand. 2) the grav tanks, if your gonna make them take 3 pop than increase the hp to at least 3000 (without holofield) then give them two jumps, other than that i like the idea of making the prism an anti-tank/building and the falcon anti-infantry.

n0z3k1ll3r

The Eldar grav tanks are 3 cap because of their high firepower, not their hp. They significantly outgun most opponents. Any HP boost would be overboard.

The aspect warrior change is still something we're working with, we were considering instituting a limit for units based on the original TT unit selection charts, but I'm not sure if this will end up being used.

Mirage Knight

Some of the Elite Choice Eldar Aspect Warriors in TT are VERY GOOD at what they do - which is why in TT they are rather rare and exist in small numbers in a typical Eldar Army. This is something we are going to ATTEMPT to replicate.

Elite Choice Aspect Warriors in TT are Wraithguards, Warp Spiders, Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Fire Dragons.

With regard to the "Why 3 support?" question: Eldar vehicles are designed around the principle of hitting fast and hard. And yes adding alot of HP would make for alot of problems. Alot of people have complained very bitterly about the severe imba of the Fire Prism as it currently stands. Heavy firepower + highly mobile + heavy armour + relative ease of access = nearly impossible to effectively counter in early games.

This mod intends to address that by having certain units adhere to established fluff - which is quite balanced in and of itself.

komninosm

You know that cultist squad costs 60 req for 12 members taking up 2 pop (btw how much will the squad cost to be built? 30 req for 6 starting members? I can see people spamming 10/10 cultists to cap fast and then suicide them all). No one is going to like it much, except a selec few. The squads will die before you have time to click on overwatch. It's just not handy.

Even if an artillery shot doesn't kill all the cultists you'll be losing at least half the squad and very little ranged fire would decimate the rest. Even if you have the speed to start overwatch it won't help much or in time. And you'll be loosing req all the time. People seem to forget that reinfrcements aren't cheap. And once you get the AC in the squad he's always going to be constantly left alone. Plus it's not good on the eyes to see people appearing out of nowhere CONSTANTLY. Suspension of disbelief only works so long. Or the req will run out making the drain totally not worth it (I hope you cut the heavy weapon costs).

You also didn't address my comment on how a lot of people feel about kill anims. That they're cool and all, but have varying affect on the game which some don't like. Your cultists will be totally unable to survive at range and probably not in melee either as long as there's another squad shooting at them. Melee cover isn't that great. With the amount of AoE attacks around, I forsee lone ACs duking it out.
Cultists have one use really. To tie up units cheaply and effectively. Even at their current state they've turned the tables and saved my life without any heavy weapon at all. Just jumping in front of my CSM to melee the SM and scouts and ruin their day.
I used them as fodder blocking the path of Killa Kanz and Dreads so that my missile boys could survive. But People aren't going to like it when their Walker is on perpetual blocking and kill anims because he is wasting his punches on worthless units and spending more time in kill anims than anything else combined, while their lower tier units could easily handle that very threat much easier.

Personally I would like if you changed the cap on cultists and scouts to 1.5 (or if that isn't possible make it 15 and 10x everything). I guess you could leave it at 2 too, but then both those squads need some boost. Cultists could use enough hitpoints to not die with a storm, but be left with a few hitpoints and scouts could use 2 more members and 1 more sniper after the armoury research. Cultists should also start with 2 heavy weapon and gain +2 from the research. Their AC needs his time fixed. Grenades should do friendly damage, perhaps, though that isn't totally necessary. If their hitpoints are upped enough they might warrant a cost increase to 20 req (at least 135 hitpoints for that) and +2 members for cap 2. I'd like to see nade travel time shortened and damage lessened too.

You said to discuss and I did, sorry if I sound opinionated.

EDIT: BTW do you think the fact that cultists and banshees start with charging speed enabled and the research lies about enabling it for them is a typo and should be fixed (either way)?

n0z3k1ll3r

Kom: I know thats what it sound like would happen, but trust me in practice those cultists live a bloody long time. I'm not honestly sure what you're asking about the kill animations... if anything they extend the cultist life span in melee so they're a bonus here. Cultists should be thrown en masse against dreadnoughts and so forth. It's just what happens to cultists. It's what I want to have happen with them. Artillery should become more widely used simply to counter that sort of situation. Combined arms all the way.

The scouts are more of an issue... I'm of the personal opinion they shouldn't be used as a frontline combat unit except in special cases, and hence can afford to be somewhat weak in that area. They have enough advantages to outweight this in the form of their high speed, long view distance, infiltration and specialist sniper weapons.

killersquid

Does this mod mess up the skirmish AI? cause I don't play online And I don't want a mod that doesn't let me play skirmish.

Mirage Knight

The AI handles the mod fairly well but currently won't build Devastator / Havoc Squads as we haven't added that into the AI routine yet. We'll definitely look into tweaking the AI to take advantage of certain changes after we get everything else balanced and fixed

komninosm

Only some parts will make the AI worse than it alread is (like Havoc squads and other new stuff), but when the AI mod team makes good progress this mod will benefit too.

Noze, I mean how people feel about kill anims, you know there have been quite a few threads about them and not everyody likes ho they affect the game. But most people don't complain much as long as their game influence is rather small and random. This would make cultists totally abuseable and make some people mad. BTW will the squad start with all 12 members (60 req)? That's still the cheapest capping unit by far.
I don't even see the reason for such a radical change. What is it?

killersquid

Ok thanks for telling me about that I'll get this mod now as it seems damn cool.
keep it up.
-killersquid

Elof

Thanks for the info ,
personally i allways thought that banshees should be alot stronger in cc and i like the idea of limiting there numbers as long as there devestating enough , are you still going to be able to reinforce guardians with weapon platforms and are the speed changes still going to be in for the platforms ?

on scouts , any chance of giving them more in the way of sniper upgrades and cutting back the hand to hand , after all there junior sm with out the armour . this might also make people use there as infiltrators instead of just extra guns

you keeping the gun implacment cost changes that noz had in ?

komninosm

BTW, something I'd like to see in this mod is a decrease in collision boxes, especially vehicles who seem to constantly get stuck. I think this would solve the repair bugs too.

In a similar vein, I would like to see the formation spread lessened. When you have many squads and click on a location, only one goes there and the rest spread apart far too much. There's enough room for more than another squad between them. I've had no problem with halving the values in the destination.lua.

n0z3k1ll3r

Cultists come in with a squad of 12 for 60 req, but really is that much different from their old squad for 75 req? Kill anims aren't as abuseable as you might think, it just means they require a slightly different approach to killing them than before (ranged weapons mostly, especially AoE as you rightly pointed out). The reason I made such a change was because it made cultists more useful throughout the game without making them OP, which most other changes do. GLs took a significant hit anyways.

Space Hulk

As a long time forum lurker, I'd like to break my silence to say that this mod has definately captured my attention and I wish you two all the best of luck with it.

n0z3k1ll3r

Thanks mate!

Mirage Knight

Thanks for the props! Glad we could drag you out of hiding as well

Mirage Knight

n0z3k1ll3r and I discussing the possibility of incorporating multiple tech paths for Chaos and Eldar.

We believe there's a way to have two similar buildings, but each one requiring the absence of the other. This would seem especially useful as far as Eldar are concerned as two similar but different Aspect Portals can be built. This would allow for a different Aspect Warrior tech path. Elites could then be buffed a bit - but be mutually exclusive.

Guardians, Rangers and Dire Avengers would form the backbone of the army and you can then have elite specialist squads.

Demon_Eyes

I think that the Chaos and Eldar split lines would be a good idea. You could seperate out the different Chaos gods a bit.. since they are breaking massive TT rules and fluff by mixing units that are only available to marked armies, especially armies that will normally kill eachother even though they are all Chaos!

If you want to use my PSM changes, I think I have them much closer to fluff than they were before while keeping them fairly balanced, or atleast more balanced than they previously were, 3 daemonic gifts removing daemonic fire (they would need the horror type fire from what I remember - it was not a flame template), fearless, slightly tougher than normal marines as they should be but not incredibly tough like they were before.

The Wraithlord non vehicle armor n0z3k1ll3r did was very fluffy and seemed to work well (wounds and Toughtness score on wraithlord, it didn't have an AV front/side/rear like a true vehicle in TT). Squad fast attack vehicles (Vyper/Landspeeder) also seemed very good aside from the issues it presented.

Mirage Knight

I do believe n0z3 had the idea of seperating out certain Chaos Armies / Abilites and such in mind when he presented the idea to me

Thank you for your offer - we'll keep it under consideration

komninosm

Nozekiller, I don't consider kill anims so much abuse as some people, but I do have a dislike for how they affect the game (they make the unit do less damage and make it immune for a compromise and that screws up with abilities too and other stuff). Did you leave the cultist AC reinforce at 5 seconds?

BTW, you didn't comment on my suggestions in post 23. They're easily doable so do you simply not like them?

TheHankerChief

I'd like to see tha Eldar plats have 0 setup time and no move-shoot penalty. This would match TT, and be more in the spirit of the highly mobile Eldar. Naturally, this might require dps tweaks to make them fair.

n0z3k1ll3r

Komninosm: Decreasing collision boxes is certainly an option, but it does have the problem of causing some horrible looking clipping bugs when tanks drive partway through walls and so forth. I'm of the opinion that the only unit that really needs it is the squiggoth.

The formation spread is something I'll look into.

Hankerchief: That sort of change would cause much the same problems as reducing the grav platform cost and hp did when I was testing that for guardian squads. Depending what you do with the DPS its either overpowered or underpowered, the level of balance is a hairline edge that would need some sort of scientific inquiry to find. So not really a good idea I feel. I think just boosting the speed of the platforms and replacing grav boosters with FoF helps 'fluffify' them alot already.

komninosm

Well you don't have to halve collision boxes. I don't think 10% reduction in some units and maybe even 20% in some others would have bad visual results, yet it will make pathing a bit easier. Only yesterday I queued a cultist squad to got to 1 SP and then another directly infront of it and they got stuck amongst themselves!
And think of all the vehicles with repair problems or stupid personalities. I managed to block and render immobile a couple of Dreads today, though I'm fairly sure one was stunned by my FC hammer as it tried to move to other targets. Or it might also have been bad pathing (it was totally stuck, didn't even rotate).

The formation spread I've allready done myself, it's quite easy. Now it's set to leave space between squads as much as the larger squad in the group (and a bit more than that). I set it to half that and the squads aren't even touching and it works fine.

BTW, I had an idea about scouts. You made them take 2 pop and have only 200 hitpoints, but you gave them the firepower of marines against heavy targets (I'm not sure if this is a good change, you could mass them behind a line of meat shield and theu'd be more effective than marines, battle troops). They still are a bit weak for pop so how about giving them a leader, a scoutmaster. Hey all the other squads get one (except only rangers?). Make him have sight range 40 (but only him) and maybe start with a sniper type weapon. Or whatever you can think of. Maybe he could have some cool ability, or be a little tougher than normal scouts, like more hitpoints or high armour.
Just an idea.

PS: how is the voting going for the cultist idea :-p

komninosm

I also found another cool suggestion from some guy in these forums.
How about removing the SC pistols completely.
They practically do no damage and removing them could help improve the SC buggy AI a lot.

n0z3k1ll3r

It would look a bit wierd though...

frank40k

Oh damn, so your saying your not going to have platforms be an upgrade for guardians? but that idea was so cool.

n0z3k1ll3r

Not necessarily not going to, but it seems impossible to implement properly at the moment. Rest assured I'm still working on it. That said I've been working on it since day 1 of Balance/Fluff, so don't expect results anytime soon (if at all)...

Demon_Eyes

I messed around with plats as squad leaders for a bit, it worked fine but it also felt a little 'off'.

n0z3k1ll3r

Other problem with plats as squad leaders is that it precludes warlocks, and the platforms have to be one or the other right? You can't have a choice of Shuriken or Brightlance.

Mirage Knight

Some news of interest for all - pertaining to balancing out Eldar and making their armies fluffier.

Aspect Stones for all Eldar Warriors now 120 req with a build time of 16 seconds.
Dire Avengers Aspect Warriors added (no stone required) 235 HP and 40 req per member, reinforce time of 6 seconds. Squad buildable from Aspect Portal. Shuriken Catapult accuracy raised from .7 to .8 and damage is upped from 6-8 to 8-10 with minimum damage raised from 1 to 2 when compared with standard Guardian weapon. Note: currently using Guardian models as a placeholder.Death Spinner range increased from 25 to 30.
Howling Banshees now cost 4 pop - members cost 60 req and 5 power each. HP upped to 400 - Exarch HP upped to 540.
Morale for Elite Aspect Troops increased to 400. Exarch adds 100 morale.
Ranger Squad buildable from Webway Assembly - but requires Aspect Portal.
Seer Council Shuriken Pistol damage increased to 24-32 - same as Farseer's.
Warp Spiders now cost 4 pop - members cost 60 req and 20 power each - teleport recharge rate increased from .5 to 1
Webway Gate cost increased to 125 req and 25 power. Control zone reduced to a radius of 10 - enough for 4 gun platforms and that's it.

Note: We still need someone to do Dire Avenger models for this mod. If you can help, pm myself or n0z3k1ll3r. We'd also like to do Havoc / Devastator squads properly, but that can wait.

n0z3k1ll3r

As an explanation of these changes, we're aiming to have Eldar players using Guardians, Avengers and Rangers as the backbone of their army, and use other Aspect Warriors as strong but scarce specialist troops to supplement them.

Mirage Knight

And it works like a charm so far

So far Dire Avengers are a pretty good troop choice for Eldar early game - while Guardians go capping, Avengers and Rangers can do a decent job of holding the line against most infantry while Elite Aspects are being requistioned.

Eldar armies have a rather different specialized feel to them now: A good feel I think. Hopefully we'll be able to get an initial release out to the community fairly soon so you people can see what we're talking about

n0z3k1ll3r

As an aside, the much wanted Fire Dragons are on the Eldar agenda as well. They'll be in a later release though, as they aren't a short term objective.

Mirage Knight

Just updated the list of what's going to change from retail DoW.

Head on over and check it out here

ArkhanTheBlack

Hmm, I liked the possibility of reinforcing horrors in the CIBB mod.
Normally, as soon as they are reduced to two or less squad members, the best you can do is making a suicide attack on the enemy with them to get the 2 pop back.
The healing is nice, but it's not that important. At the moment it's much better to spend the power on vehicles and get a good equipped CSM squad for the ressources...

Mirage Knight

ArkhanTheBlack: We'll take the idea of reinforcing Horrors into careful consideration


More news on Eldar: The Dire Avenger Exarch is in (still need models mind you) and Dark Reapers will now take up 3 pop - but will have an addition squad member. The Dark Reaper Exarch will have a truly improved Reaper cannon and Dark Omen will give him a Grav Plat Shuriken Cannon with slight knockback. Dark Omen will only be available after researching Mobilize for War.

Marines and Orks look pretty balanced with the new changes for the time being. Chaos still needs a bit more looking into.

TheHankerChief

One thing I've always been upset about is the ork Tankbusta squad. In its description it says "melee specialist" what they don't tell you is that they are only good at melee vs. vehicles.

=============================================
== ork_stikkbomb.lua :
range= -1
morale damage per second: 4.0 (2.0)
tp_infantry_low : 7.2 (6.13)
tp_infantry_med : 6.075 (9.72)
tp_infantry_high : 4.725 (7.29)
tp_infantry_heavy_med : 3.375 (8.75)
tp_infantry_heavy_high : 2.25 (6.86)
tp_vehicle_low : 22.5 (2.0)
tp_vehicle_med : 20.08125 (1.0)
tp_vehicle_high : 15.75 (1.0)
tp_monster_med : 2.7 (8.51)
tp_monster_high : 15.75 (1.0)
tp_commander : 4.5 (4.21)
tp_building_low : 5.625 (4.38)
tp_building_med : 2.25 (1.56)
tp_building_high : 2.25 (1.0)
AvgDmg = 8.21651785714 (4.53)

*parentheses represent ork_knife_shoota.lua

TT-wise, they should be just as good as shoota boys at melee, but currently they do much less vs. regular troops. It seems silly to pigeonhole them into a single role on the battlefield.

Tod

Just had a match vs. Orks and it was a fight between one Aspiring Champion and two CSM vs. 6 Tankbustaz. Although the Asp had only less then half his health left, I didn't suffer any losses. Plain silly.

BTW, just looked at the changelist, feels damn good by now.
Just two questions:
What's the point of Havoc squads? What's the difference to CSM with HW?
Do you really think your changes on Oblits will make them good enough? I'd rather like to see noze's weapon buff for them added and their price increased, their normal weapons are just pathetic, even with pop 3 most units in the game will beat them on pop, won't they?