n0z3k1ll3r

Yup, this be a thread for collected info from all those who now have the mod tools and can view the changes to the stats made in 1.3. I'm gonna get the ball rolling.

The Big Mek cost increase is horribly severe. Each upgrade adds 15 seconds to his build time, so with all 3 researches he ends up taking nearly 1:30 to build, half again as long as the WARBOSS for gods sake.

Horror req cost is down 1/6th, power cost is down 1/4th, and hp and base damage are down 1/5th. Penetration is same across the board. So yeah, they're now slightly less req and pop efficient, but slightly more power efficient. Still excellent units in my books.

NL power klaw is basically 3/8 of the power of the Nobz Squad version, still a bit odd as they're leaders and all but quite fair considering that its a one off payment.

Fire Prism is almost as horrible as always. The blast radius is down from 10 to 8, and the shurikens do half damage to heavy_infantry_med. That is THE only change. Orks are completely fucked against this thing still, luckily it comes out later now. Marines may fare better but personally I doubt it. That blast radius needs to come down to at most 5.

Cultists have got a literally astounding set of buffs. Base cultist build time is now just over 3 SECONDS. Yup, those whiny buggers now build up damn quickly. Hp is up to 125 from 90, and melee damage is up by almost 50%. These guys are quite the little meatshields now.

Trukks... a bit of heartening news here, the Trukk damage nerf is close to nonexistant. Base damage is the same, penetration has gone down 1/12th against Infantry_high (hardly going to cripple you) and about 1/3rd vs Infantry_Low (builders who by and large cant fight back) and Infantry_Med (Guardians, Scouts, and Cultists, who to be honest you'll mow down even with the nerf). So yes, trukks remain very good weapons and I expect to see them replacing Trakks in many Ork arsenals with the latter having been pushed back.

Unfortunately that good news doesn't extend to the Mega Blaster. Damage for the MB is now down to 1/4 of its 1.2 value. While not exactly useless the MB is hardly a weapon to inspire fear in anything much any more.

Finally, scouts. The scout damage nerf is actually very minor, maybe 1/8th less damage to the light infantry armours. Whats really crippling scouts is the accuracy loss on the move, but while stationary they're almost as powerful as ever.

SubZero

I find it strange that Nob Leader Klaws are not the same dmg as the Nob Squad.

n0z3k1ll3r

Full Damage NL klaws would MASSIVELY overpower the NL unless cost was increased, and increasing cost would underpower ork infantry as they'd lose their uber meatshield. This was just the easiest way I guess.

SubZero

The should make the Klaws universal stats, and lower the cost of Nobz, by moving em to Tier 2. That would give the Orks the Tier 2 troops that they need, instead of solo heavy infantry with broken morale (as their squads are destroyed).

We know Ork Tech has been slowed considerably, so that would be a compromise. Just seems silly that you could get a Nob Leader in a Nob Squad with worse weapon than his followers...

n0z3k1ll3r

Thats not too bad an idea actually... it'd also open up Tier 3 for the Mega Armoured Nobz they're getting in WA. And it'd give Ork some oomph against the second commander, which I identify as one of their weak points (Power Klaws have around 40% vs Commanders, so they can actually lay some hurt down if there's enough of them)

SubZero

Well, the Nob Squad is also potent AV dmg too, even without the Klaws, so the Ork Player wouldnt need to rely on Traks either.

n0z3k1ll3r

Bingo... I'm gonna mod this in when I have time and see how well it works... I think we may have hit on a solution to ork problems.

SubZero

woohoo!!! :P

DivineOne

<3

Trenchus Ratus

Really ? you got some screen shots on that n0z3 ?

... or were you just told that ? Who told you ? ... I was pretty excited when I saw fire dragons in the gamespot interview - but mega armoured nobz ... thats a whole new waaaaaghness

Excedrin

Since the mod tools are out, I've looked at some of the changes in 1.3.

Note, I'll update my web based stats script sometime soon, the data it has is still for 1.2.

http://lerp.com/~sic/dow/wiki.cgi?13Changes

* Reduced melee damage of Assault Marines against building low.
* Reduced melee damage of Raptors against building low.

The old value is in parenthesis. These numbers are for a squad of 4.

raptor chainsword:
tp_building_high: 13
tp_building_low: 28.12485 (49.499736)
tp_building_med: 13.199554602

asm chainsword:
tp_building_high: 6.5
tp_building_low: 28.0124 (44.81984)
tp_building_med: 11.952330832

* Scouts do less ranged damage to infantry_low, infantry_med, and infantry_high.

These numbers are for a squad with 2 scouts, with 1.2 values in parenthesis.

tp_building_high: 2.125
tp_building_low: 5.399848125
tp_building_med: 2.125
tp_commander: 2.125
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 4.999859375
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 10.79969625
tp_infantry_high: 12.3516526 (13.99960625)
tp_infantry_low: 11.156286220625 (12.599645625)
tp_infantry_med: 14.756984948125 (16.666131251875)
tp_monster_high: 2.125
tp_monster_med: 10.79969625
tp_vehicle_high: 2.125
tp_vehicle_low: 2.125
tp_vehicle_med: 2.125

* Reduced Cultist Grenade Launcher damage by 35%. Increased build time of Grenade Launcher.

For 3 grenade launchers.

tp_building_high: 9.75
tp_building_low: 9.75
tp_building_med: 9.75
tp_commander: 9.75
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 9.75 (13.9259709875)
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 18.33 (28.19994125)
tp_infantry_high: 27.495 (42.299911875)
tp_infantry_low: 29.328 (45.119906)
tp_infantry_med: 37.33899 (57.44448032375)
tp_monster_high: 9.75
tp_monster_med: 10.69263 (16.45016572875)
tp_vehicle_high: 9.75
tp_vehicle_low: 9.75
tp_vehicle_med: 9.75

* Increased damage output of cultist plasma gun, slightly increased cost.

For 3 cultist plasma guns.

weapon power: 15
weapon req: 60 (30)
tp_building_high: 2.787 (3.5556)
tp_building_low: 15.62025 (8.0001)
tp_building_med: 4.98675 (2.4)
tp_commander: 21.642 (4.6155)
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 44.1225 (21.1764)
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 59.994 (28.8)
tp_infantry_high: 25.02525 (15.9999)
tp_infantry_low: 26.268 (16.8)
tp_infantry_med: 41.6775 (22.2222)
tp_monster_high: 2.4
tp_monster_med: 58.38525 (9.3333)
tp_vehicle_high: 2.4
tp_vehicle_low: 8.5695
tp_vehicle_med: 4.491

* Dark Reaper Exarch now does more damage to Heavy Infantry.

Looks like he's on par with the regular reaper now.

tp_infantry_heavy_high: 20.23 (13.3875)
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 21.42 (14.175)
tp_infantry_low: 5.95 (3.9375)
tp_infantry_med: 4.046 (3.5)
tp_monster_high: 5.4264 (3.591)
tp_monster_med: 19.04 (12.6)

* Reduced damage of Trukk Big Shoota.

Note that each trukk has 2 of these. Looks like it's unchanged vs marines.

tp_building_high: 9.94 (11.8335)
tp_building_low: 15.98 (23.6665)
tp_building_med: 9.4668 (11.8335)
tp_commander: 4.128
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 19.722
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 28.4
tp_infantry_high: 20.14161 (23.6665)
tp_infantry_low: 17.4376 (28.4)
tp_infantry_med: 26.962 (39.4445)
tp_monster_high: 2
tp_monster_med: 24.85
tp_vehicle_high: 2
tp_vehicle_low: 3.6365
tp_vehicle_med: 2

* Reduced cost of Possessed marines, decreased attack/hp/build time accordingly.

hitpoints: 562.79999 (670)
squad hitpoints: 2251.19996 (2680)
unit time_seconds: 9 (11)
unit power: 20 (25)
unit req: 65 (75)
squad time_seconds: 36 (44)
squad power: 80 (100)
squad req: 260 (300)
squad population: 0
tp_building_high: 42.0000724 (50.00008)
tp_building_low: 73.5001267 (87.50014)
tp_building_med: 50.40008688 (60.000096)
tp_commander: 63.0001086 (75.00012)
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 58.80010136 (70.000112)
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 67.20011584 (80.000128)
tp_infantry_high: 73.5001267 (87.50014)
tp_infantry_low: 94.5001629 (112.50018)
tp_infantry_med: 94.5001629 (112.50018)
tp_monster_high: 21.0000362 (25.00004)
tp_monster_med: 67.20011584 (80.000128)
tp_vehicle_high: 21.0000362 (25.00004)
tp_vehicle_low: 46.20007964 (55.000088)
tp_vehicle_med: 37.485064617 (44.6250714)

* Reduced cost of Horrors, decreased attack/hp/build time accordingly.

hitpoints: 420 (525)
unit time_seconds: 9
unit power: 15 (20)
unit req: 50 (60)
squad hitpoints: 2100 (2625)
squad time_seconds: 45
squad power: 75 (100)
squad req: 250 (300)
squad population: 0

daemon fire:
tp_building_high: 12.5
tp_building_low: 32.4 (40.5)
tp_building_med: 12.5
tp_commander: 34.6152 (43.269)
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 70.5888 (88.236)
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 86.4 (108)
tp_infantry_high: 84 (105)
tp_infantry_low: 50.4 (63)
tp_infantry_med: 93.3336 (116.667)
tp_monster_high: 20.5716 (25.7145)
tp_monster_med: 69.9996 (87.4995)
tp_vehicle_high: 12.5
tp_vehicle_low: 24.6852 (30.8565)
tp_vehicle_med: 16.4568 (20.571)

horror melee:
tp_building_high: 3.75
tp_building_low: 27 (33.75)
tp_building_med: 7.2 (9)
tp_commander: 5.775 (7.21875)
tp_infantry_heavy_high: 11.775 (14.71875)
tp_infantry_heavy_med: 24 (30)
tp_infantry_high: 23.325 (29.15625)
tp_infantry_low: 30 (37.5)
tp_infantry_med: 33.3 (41.625)
tp_monster_high: 3.75
tp_monster_med: 58.35 (72.9375)
tp_vehicle_high: 3.75
tp_vehicle_low: 3.75
tp_vehicle_med: 3.75

TBS

This is really a strategy issue and theres already a thread going in that forum collecting this kind of data, Ill merge this thread with that one.

Good work btw .

General Blaze

So much that you'd change your sig?

"When I'ze grow up, i'ze wanna be a Mega-Armoured nob! "

.42.

Excedrin good work but personally I find the numbers more edifying when they are done per model and not per squad of 2, 4 etc.

Keep up the good work.

haniblecter

Moving Nobs would overpower orcs.

Those things are scary as is.

Inst

let's see, 250/75 cost horrors, 325/400 = 65/80 = 13/16 cost horrors, hmmm.

0.8125 cost horrors..

should be about 66% as strong as current horrors...

0.8 * 0.8 .64, not true scalar change. horrors have been slightly nerfed on cap efficiency.

Nozekiller, you were watching too many korbah replays, plasmarines beat horrors fully upgraded, since horrors have 77% more HP than plasmarines, and plasmarines have 54% more damage.

Aspiring champion probably compensates for this, and 2 levels of optics upgrades fully negates this factor.



That's not the least bit true, nobz squad version is obscenely powerful, power claw on nob squad is not the same as a leader weapon. Power klaws on nob squad simply turns nob squads into glass cannons, even though it takes forever for one to die, they have bad HP for cost and superb damage for cost. It's basically aheavy weapon, plasma pistol on commanders is not as powerful as plasma guns on marines.

3/8 the numbers, well, that's rpetty good, considering that Power Klaws are about 2x as expensive as a nob leader. That means, you're dealnig 75% the DPS/100res.

GRIM Ripper

ummm correct me if im wrong, but isnt a nob leader's BASE damage ABOUT 3/8 of a friggin powerklaw?? still seems like there is no point in upgrading unless you want at most a 5dps increase. oh wait, thats negated by the more choppy upgrades which will seemingly once again put the nob leaders base damage OVER the klaw and costs cheaper and effects just about all orks. the powerklaw should be at least twice as powerful (around 70-80dps vs most infantry targets) as the nobs standard choppa to warrant use.

can someone post the exact numbers for the nob leader klaw???

Deen

The point of the claw is to kill buildings better while keeping the anti-infantry melee power.

GRIM Ripper

id like to wait until i see the damage numbers first, bc i suspect that theyre not significantly better than the standard nob choppa vs buildings either -- besides, thats NOT what theyre supposed to do. theyre supposed to be an upgrade that makes nob leaders better at killing all things, period. i dont want to pay 150/100 for a 5dps increase vs buildings.

MoschBoy

to my experience nob leader powerclaw is great. it deals enormous amounts of damage to just everything; a BM with 1 Nob leader with powerclawn is>> every other hero...

AND they kill buildings real fast. SB with powerclaws are at least a raiding unit for orks worth its requisition.

GRIM Ripper

im just going by what noz said and MY own experiences... ie 3/8ths the damage of a regular power klaw. that is barely better than the standard nob choppa, and the difference is lessened with the more choppy upgrade, which affects nob leaders normal weapon (20% increase puts the standard nob choppa at around 40dps vs most infantry targets) , but not the klaw.

i think people WANT the klaw to be good, but i really think the upgrade is still not close to worth it. hopefully ill be proven wrong once i see the numbers, but i doubt it.

as for building damage, i tested it and the leader klaw does slightly over twice the damage vs light buildings (per hit) that a regular stormboy does... nothing very special at all. and they certainly dont do jack vs vehicles.

dissapointing to say the least... however this is my experience with a hint of speculation, so again ill just wait for the numbers.

Inst

power klaws on Nobz is an absurd 120 DPS.

To be 3/8th, 60 DPS, 45 DPS. significantly better than NL choppa.

hay guys, what's the new Trakk rokkit stats?

I hope it's been buffed against vehicles, solves key ork weaknesses.

Excedrin

http://lerp.com/~sic/dow/dps.html

I've updated my DPS table for each weapon against each armor type. CSV source of the table is available. Also the data for 1.2 is still available.

Wartrakk rocket:
building_high 31.111
building_low 70
building_med 28
commander 3.5
infantry_heavy_high 3.5
infantry_heavy_med 8.8
infantry_high 4.5
infantry_low 8.5
infantry_med 7.7
monster_high 15
monster_med 8.8
vehicle_high 15
vehicle_low 48
vehicle_med 36

Inst

36 anti vehicle med is somewhat better.... *1.2*1.15 = 49.68, forgivable.

mlai

Thank you for keeping 1.2 data for viewing. Because once I get a chance I'm modding certain values back to 1.2 version (for personal use).

GRIM Ripper

well, what i thought was correct. the leader powerklaw is GARBAGE. it gives roughly a 5 dps increase vs all infantry over the standard choppa and a "whopping" 10 dps increase vs light buildings. it should at least be as powerful as a witchblade.

the more choppy upgrade will just about equal the nob leaders standard damage with the klaw, only its cheaper AND it affects all orks. nice.

so much for the feared nob leader klaw.

Inst

I believe powerklaw is now affected by more choppy, but i'm not sure.

Second, when you consider power klaw increase, it has to be considered as a percent, not as a +x.

+x is the same between a cheap gretchen and an expensive terminator...

For +4, you've doubled the DPS of a gretchen, while for a termie with assault cannon, it's a drop in the bucket.

GRIM Ripper

thats my point... +5dps for a nob leader is garbage, % wise or not.

and ok... vs infantry_med its a 20% increase. so it seems to be between a 10% and 20% increase across most armor types. thats DECENT, but for 150/100? especially when that can be supplied by the more choppy upgrade for cheaper AND have it affect the rest of your army. consider a sergeants powerfist which is almost 100% increase in damage (ie double).

if klaws ARE affected by more choppy, then its still not worth it, but at least slight better. can anyone confirm this?

Excedrin

Here's all of the DPS changes for 1.3, excluding things that less than 0.01 different.
http://lerp.com/~sic/dow/dpschanges.txt

Inst: note that the trak rocket didn't change vs vehicles.

Inst

chaos_autocannon_twin infantry_high 159.39 4.25
chaos_autocannon_twin infantry_med 169.35 4.25


WOW! NO WONDER!

ABSURD!

GRIM Ripper

yep... the only ranged damage that is even close to that is the squiggoth zzapp cannon!

Excedrin

What's absurd about that? It was bugged before. Now it's less than the damage from 6 warp spiders.

6 warp spiders:
tp_infantry_high: 175.695
tp_infantry_med: 206.7

6 WS:
req: 360
power: 90

1 defiler:
req: 140
power: 305

Vertigo

Wait, did the AC get BUMPED in damage, too? I thought they left the raw damage values alone, but my numbers on 1.2 were 121 DPS heavy_med, and that says 169 DPS. Son of a...



Because the WS doesn't do that kind of damage vs. everything, perhaps? Or have vehicle armor? Or also melee at over 100 DPS?

GRIM Ripper

bc for every warp spider you kill (which isnt that hard) they lose a a sizeable % of that damage output. the defiler will whail away with 160dps until its dead (which is hard considering its veh_med armor). it also cannot be effectively engaged in melee or tied up like warp spiders, builds faster than 6 warp spiders, and has artillery to boot.

besides, most people think warp spiders are vastly overpowered vs orks also, so that comparison doesnt really help.

edit: vertigo said it well.

Inst

he's being sarcastic, I think. if they overall buffed the def, they're bloody insane.

Excedrin

Vertigo: That says infantry_med NOT infantry_heavy_med.

Ripper: WS being vastly overpowered vs orks has nothing to do with the content of this thread, this is about 1.3 numbers, not balance discussion.

Inst: Only the things I posted in dpschanges.txt are actually changed. So the defiler works against light infantry now, as it was intended. It's debatable whether the fix that makes it actually fire the AC now can be considered an overall buf.

Stoned Tree

Wow, they really got that Megablasta did'nt they?



...And the Stormboys aren't bad now.

savagedave

Megablasta needed some hot nerf action though, it was insane.

Stepsongrapes

it was insane because of F2 abuse. A 1/3 damage reduction would have been sufficient. Many would then choose to CC rather than shoot, so that they could tie a squad and do damage at the same time. Doing this effectively ELIMINATED the blasta from play.

Relic might as well have removed it like bonesong.

I honestly don't know why Relic didn't work harder to improve the variety of viable units and strategies instead of channeling each race into 1-2 max strategies.

Look at eldar- nerf FP, great. But why didn't they improve the WL to make it used more, hell even vipers got the nerf? Now eldar just channel into their mighty platforms, getting vehicles isn't worth it anymore, platforms are missile-resistant to boot.

[Vertigo]

Vertigo, remember that the Defiler's Auto Cannon was missing some armor penetration values for light infantry. I guess Relic really went full bore with the Defiler.

edit: Shit, those DPS numbers for Cultist Plasma is insane in itself!

"Look at eldar- nerf FP, great. But why didn't they improve the WL to make it used more, hell even vipers got the nerf? Now eldar just channel into their mighty platforms, getting vehicles isn't worth it anymore, platforms are missile-resistant to boot."

Becuase the FP overshadowed the other vehicles, the Vyper and the Falcon are great vehicles but the FP was just so much better then they were. Plats maybe missile resistant but when you enemies realize they are not going to see vehicles they will simple max out on the anti-infantry hardware and go to town on you.

GRIM Ripper

excedrin, youre the one who brought up the comparison with warp spiders, not me... im telling you why its an invalid comparison.

savagedave

The only nerf applied to Vypers was missile DPS to infantry, wasn't it? And that it was a bit daft that if you change their weapon to something designed to kill buildings and vehicles it started to insta-kill infantry into the bargain. When you upgrade a pred or trakk to AV you lose some anti-inf capability, be a bit unfair if Vypers didn't.

haniblecter

Jesus, what were they thinking with that megablaster nerf.

It'll also damage your troops too, so you cant fire into a crowd. Its now only a good support weapon...on a unit that is far from support.

Stepsongrapes

Savage,

Actually trakks used to be just like Vypers re the missile upgrade. Regardless, the issue shouldn't be a one to one comparison, the issue is balance patches that essentially remove entire units from play such as blasta, vypers, trakks, etc.

Not all nerfs or buffs reduce or increase the overall effectiveness of a race. Do you think that a buff to WL would make eldar overall stronger? Not really unless it was unreasonable, it would just mean that ppl MIGHT pick WL's overall the wall of platforms.

I'm just saddened to see the game degenerate into single unit spams. Trakks for example, needed to be slightly nerfed to cure this, but not into oblivion. Mixed armies accomplish a number of goals: more strategy, more interesting, more visually pleasing.

Vertigo

My bad. I should know better. Still insane, but to a lesser degree.

savagedave

Clarification: did Megablasta do "Friendly Fire" in 1.2?

Are Vypers gonna be removed from play though? Vyper rushing was pretty effective in 1.2, and even without missiles they do great damage to infantry. Like was mentioned earlier, vehicles in conjunctions with plats are a harder proposition to counter than plats or vehicles alone.

Stepsongrapes

I find vypers outclassed by falcons now that the missile nerf is in. They essentially play the same role unless the missile upgrade is in place (now that involves a significant risk for a benefit that is better covered by BL's).

Thing is, for the cost (not to mention the time) of MfW, and the support portal, I can get 4-5 additional platforms. Missile marines are nullified and the SM/CSM player is forced to go either plasma or HB while still needing missiles to crack bases. Orks, bleah u don't need plats or vehicles. Mirror matches, mostly end in a spectacular explosion of WS,WS,WS, SC, plats.

The vyper is probably the weakest example of "nerfed into oblivion". The blasta, trakk, SC (bar mirror matches) are probably the prime examples of this Relic strategy. I think FP's ( in single player only) may fall into this class, considering the 3 stone requirement.

GRIM Ripper

i agree. there are really only a few underused units left, ie whirlwinds, (rocket/stock) vypers, wraithlords, (rockets/stock) trakks, and hellfire dreads.

TheDeadlyShoe

The Megablaster always did friendly fire damage.

The DPS numbers for it are misleading; at a guess, multiply the numbers by 5 or 6 for their true average value, cuz that's how many people its gonna be hitting.

Hellfires are decent against vypers and falcons. I actually see more of them in 1.3.