[DS]Charlie

Well, after a good 80 or so 1v1 automatch games, a lot of workin', strategizin', replayzizin', and tinkerin' with da boyz, I have managed to hit top 10. Yes, that's right folks. Top 10 with Orks. And an 82% win percentage, to boot.

Now, you can either say this is beacuse I have god-like wtfpwnz0r skillz (which I don't mind at all ), or we can take a look at what I'm doing and come to 2 possible conclusions.

1. Orks are not that weak, their 1 available strategy does work no matter what, and Ork players have no need to whine.

2. Orks are that weak, their 1 available strategy only works because most players haven't caught on to the fact that Orks only have 1 available strategy and are still doing silly tech strats. A patch is still needed.

Now, let me just get out of the way. Playing Ork vs Eldar has always been, and remains, and will (probably) continue to be, similar to this:

Eldar--> :sniper: :vikingb: <-- Ork

In this complex diagram we see the powerful melee capabilities of Ork completely useless vs the ranged wtfpwn abilities of the Eldar. The Ork may be great in melee- but wtf does that matter? They will never get within 20 feet of those Warp Spiders. And, if they do get in melee range, the WS merely teleport out. Making your efforts futile. And oh, btw, they can do that twice. So, let's say that somehow you are able to micro your way out of these 2 teleports and still get in CC with the WS- guess what? They need merely run away and you will be doing 0 damage to them the whole way. Turn to flee? They merely turn around and :sniper: you like the hairy melee-oriented ape you are.

That much being said, I think it's clear to everyone that Ork vs Eldar is a complete joke, and no Eldar should ever take pride or think they are better than said Ork player for beating them. :naughty:

Now, onto the real matter. How have I gotten top 10? Simple. Mass infantry. With lots of Nobs. Powerklaws are not necessary nor cost-efficient (thanks a lot, Relic). I often put stormboyz on overwatch. First you must set up a decent economy, in order to spam your units fast enough to overwhelm him in one brief moment, at which point the game turns in your favor.

Most of my wins happen just like this:
1. The opponent harasses me a bit while I harass him a bit with BM/sluggas and upgrade my econ. He makes only a moderately sized army, obviously fearing trakks.
2. Facing his only moderately sized army, I am able to set up my economy, banners, and PoG and hold off his attacks with my weakest of weak LP2's.
3. I spam about 6 squads with my now superior economy and with some good amount of micromanagement handle all of them at once and surround/pwn his infantry, at which point he quickly resigns.

Most of my losses happen like this:
1. The opponent amasses a huge army, making my harass useless.
2. The opponent attacks me in full force with a gigantic army, quickly crushing my inferior infantry and economy.
3. I watch as my melee squads get wtfraped by range superiority, at which point I quickly resign.

What SM/CSM/Eldar players have forgotten is pretty simple: Orks are not fucking getting trakks. Ever. It's simply too hard to maintain that many waaagh banners while holding some sort of map control/economy. Secondly, an Ork infantry-based rush army will always and I repeat, always lose to any other race's fast infantry-based rush army. Why? Because of the simple principle I put forth earlier:

Ork infantry < all other infantry

Simple as that. If I spend all my starting resource on one big army, and my opponent is not Ork and has similar skill to me and spends all his starting resource on one big army, I will lose 10/10. Simply because ranged > melee and vs mass ranged, melee is entirely ineffective. Thus, the only way to win as Orks is to make your economy > than theirs, and then spam your powerful nobs on multiple squads and overwhelm him in one brief wave.

So, all the SM/CSM/Eldar players must do is learn that an Ork player's mass infantry will never beat their mass infantry. And an Ork player's tech will never beat their mass infantry. What beat their mass infantry? The fear of trakks. An SM player ponders to himself, "if I rush him with my entire army, I may kill 3 LP's, but by then trakks will come and I'm fucked! I will have to actually manage an economy/military and take map control and tech over time and a gradual process to win! Oh noez!" Now the thought process of the same SM player goes, "if I rush him with my entire army, I will kill his entire army with ease, and destroy his base and have complete superiority! And after my servitors have single-handedly dismantled his Settlement, he STILL won't have reached trakks!"

You understand now? What I am saying is pretty simple. Once players' mindset towards Ork changes from, "their tech is always happening," to "their infantry is their one-shot-chance," there isn't even going to be one Ork player in the top 10. I can barely do this now, even with many players dazed and confused about how to handle Orks it still makes for the toughest games ever, even against some of the worst opponents- opponents my harass and tech playstyle would have absolutely decimated over and over in 1.2. Players who admit they are worse than me. :fright: And players who still :sniper: headshot me with their l33t races.

Now that I've written another book, I'm done.

:cranky:

You can find all my good replays at www.dowr.com. I will continue to play Orks, and rest assured I will maintain my lone top 10 Ork representative spot with all the Waaagh I have left. But beware- it won't be long before even this is impossible thanks to the wrath of our anti-Ork friends at Relic. :flame: :flame: :flame:

ZogmekGrimjaw

Orkses aint apes, theys fungi

Seriously, I feel the same way. I'm trying to come up with a viable strat with my boyz too. The strat that seems to be working early on is double gen, delay BH, spam Sluggas, reinforce lps early and fast tech to Mad Doks. (FJ actually makes a HUGE difference against Warp Spiders.) But as you say, its only a matter of time before everyone knows EXACTLY what to do to waste da Boyz early on.

Hopefully Winter Assault will fix the outstanding balance issues. Maybe Relic will learn from their mistakes with Orky vehicles:

- wartrukk
- wartrakk
+warbike squad
+battlewagon

Hope you're listening Relic, I want my Kult of Speed!!!

[DS]Charlie

I hate to be rude but I really hate when people say, "Winter Assault will balance the game." This is not how RTS games are made. I bought fucking Dawn of War. I play Dawn of War. I want Dawn of War to be balanced. I don't want Dawn of War to be "piece 1A" to the Winter Assault masterpiece. I don't really give a shit about Winter Assault. Hey- it's an expansion! Great! I want my game balanced now. As it is. Balanced.

Boomstar

Good post there, and you managed to do it without really swearing ().Wish Relic would read just that one post as it sums up the ork situation pretty much completely.

MaverickXENO

I think I'm with Charlie on this one, relic seems to overnerf units...

BiggestMek

I agree. In a similar post about the weapon/armor system, I summized the same basic weakness of Ork that unless they out-economy their opponents, they wont win against an equally skilled player.

I might add one tid-bit that while charlie has been able to get a lot of wins with the mid-game army (nobz, few ups, SB), it is doom for any Ork not able to secure a win by that time. You become so geared to fight at that one moment, right between the rushes and late-game tech, that if you lose, you cannot reasonably shift to a late game defense (pitiful for ork anyway) as easily as the other races can switch to a late game offense.

In otherwords, Ork's one strategy is a one-shot deal. If you blow it, all your choppy, blasty, and such upgrades wont help you against hellfires, FP, or defilers.
Trukks and Traks aren't beating anyone in the late game and getting teir 3 isnt that rewarding anyhow: Kustom Shoota is nerfed, the kan is very very situational, and the looted tank might have the worst pathing of any vehicle in the game (with a setup time to boot).

Go go super nob rush! Hope my opponents dont start preparing for the mid game! :fight:

TheLoneKnight

I concur entirely with your lengthy Ork post.

Though the only other strat I've found effective is to simply forgo your economy and rush them with as many units as you can before they can get a bulky ranged army-- but that also has a massive inherent risk.

BiggestMek

I've not seen any successful Ork rushes since BM's ranged attack got toned down (thought it prolly should have been). Know a good site I can find an example of the rush on, LoneK?

[DS]Charlie

Tried it. Play against anyone worth their shite and it will fail. Miserably.

Vertigo

Concur. I've been watching LOTS of replays, and every single Ork win I've seen was something like:

1) Orks mass
2) Opponent techs to tier 2
3) Orks roll them before they can get any advantage from tier 2

And every time I just shake my head. Are these people not reading the forums? Have they not seen the changelog? Why the hell are they teching? What are they afraid of? You piss your primary advantage away if you let Orks turtle and econ boom.

I once saw a guy refuse to attack until after Orks had Kans. KANS! FFS.

Spike

Nice summary Charlie, right on the mark. Swearing shouldn't really be necessary in these forums but in this case its totally fucking necessary, such is the magnitude of our problem.

Relic, please listen, it would be horrible to see the game become a 3 race affair.

DukeRustfield

Mad props on getting top 10. NL have been the only thing that can float this race. Though the strategy just isn't that fun for me.

I think the problem is that Defilers are so godlike, people assume they must tech to win. So these cavemen come by and smash them (though they still have crap anti-building). Unfortunately all the people I face seem to know better and just Tac/CSM me to pieces.

Death_Gun

thats it.

and about ork beeing owned by any kind of ranged, the same happens to a sm vs elds. i lost 5 squads (5 units each) to 5 groups of drs and few guards. they died about 5 secs after landed from the jump (and i had 3 groups of sm 4hb each) shooting the dr.

HolyBug

And we can NEVER forget, that the "terrain effect", may let ork face more disadvantages, just because that "ORK IS CC ONLY".

Can you image that the ork always fight by crossing the blood river over and over...

n0z3k1ll3r

HolyBug: Equally though cover works only in orks favour in Ork VS Not Ork matchups. Or nearly only anyway.

Interesting list of grievances Charlie.

General Blaze

Hey, it's better than what that "Other" Ork player would have submitted. Now THAT'S what I'm talking about.

Onlinesmurf

Confused to the point of this thread.

Yes Ork have it harder in 1v1 and it is nice you play so many games you are good, but the real truth is 1v1 is insignificant to the majority of the community. That is why there is so many team games and quickstart.

Of course those who play all day are more vocal, but you paid for the game once just like everyone else, so for every one person talking about how they are upset about 'competitive play' there are many more saying I'm having fun with my 50 man FFA or quickstart endless troop spam.

Until the vocal minority who play to build the ego start buying more than one copy it wont matter. I bought two copies full price to support relic and I think its unbalanced but I still have fun. Then again I don't need to feel that my 'skill' in a video game validates anything. I take it as just entertainment, even though losing all the time does suck.

Hopefully relic can balance out the game, but not because the 1v1 players say it. Those are to out of mainstream in this game and just care about abusing whatever they can to win. Money is money and obviously DOW makes money, and why would the programmers keep putting out patches for a game that you already paid for? 3 in 6 months is a nice clip. Its not like these vocal players wont leave soon as another game they like comes around.

If you have played that many games you got your money's worth. If $50 you want endless patches imagine what the programers should get for all the time they put into the patches. Go mod the game or be happy.

Everything above I mean in a civilized and respectful manner of course.

Dhaeman

If the races aren't balanced in the 1v1 setting, they aren't balanced when you play a team game either. The fact of the matter is, that while "pro" opinions about the game don't matter any more than "casual" players, the "pro" player is better at pointing out balance flaws - as Charlie has done here. It's the 1v1 players that provide the most insightful balancing perspectives and if it wasn't for the 1v1 players, it would be a lot harder to get a feel for what is and isn't balanced correctly.

It's like a science experience. In team games you have too many variables (multiple races) that skews the results. In 1v1 games, you isolate the variables (one race per side) and can better determine what the problem(s) are.

This isn't a battle between "pro" and "casual" players. It's about getting this game to be balanced, because it's so damn good it just needs to be.

Warboy

An Ork in the top ten? That's great! So let's see we have one Ork...mmmhmmm one Chaos, and oh look a Space Marine! That would leave seven Eldar.

The day we get something other than Eldar in the top five, is the day we can get our hopes up for DoW balance.

HolyBug

To n0z3k1ll3r:

I am sorry that my english is poor, so that I can hardly understand what you wanna explain, even I do know the meaning of every single word .

Because that ork always try to "CHASE" other races, so it is easily to be direct to some harmful terrain, which lower the armor attribute.

If the enemy is SM or CSM, they can use their commander or chaos lord as melee.
The difference is "ORK are all CC unit" but "Others are hybrid".

No matter how you try to micro your infantry, you are naturally in the disadvantageous position.

Maybe you expressed the same opinion?

Fraggis

We dont want endless patches, we want quality working patches...and correct me if i'm wrong but those programmers get PAID for the time they put into the patches, its kind of like a 'job' for them.

As for your point about more people playing team games, its irrelevant really, if the game is balenced from a 1on1 point of view, a good balence from the team game perspective should naturally follow.

I used to play all the races but lately i've just quit even trying to play ork in automatch as it's simply too hard to win even when your opponant isn't as good as you.

santiago4ever

This sums up the ork situation as well as it can be. I agree totally with you charlie... but still I'm not the type of player who starts out with just massing infantry so I will continue with my teching... even though both caligula and Alendor pwned me with mass infantry on VoK ^.^

NaHeMoTh

Congrats on getting top 10 and sticking with your race in it's hardest times.
I play mostly Eldar, and I must say I agree with your post, I'd really like to see Orks, and other races balanced. As for Eldar, i think 2 of their units are OP at the moment, BL plats and WS (against Orks), but the real game-breaking advantage might be their cheaper generators. I think SM/CSM* gens could be made cheaper to make fast gen BOs more verastile.

@HolyBug: Orks get most advantage of cover, cause it works against ranged fire only, and Orks are mostly CC. [Edit:] Oh, you mean NEGATIVE cover, well yes, it kinda screws the Orks over.

*[Edit:] Orks can tech fine, but wish they had something to tech to other than NL, LOL. Have you Ork players tried Trukks? They were nerfed only slightly, so I heard.

Katastrophikus

I have taken to using Trukks and, although it does help even out the early game out, it still doesn't help if I haven't killed my enemy before Tier 2. There's nothing quite as sad and funny as a trukk racing away from Dreadnaughts.

killerg

warboy, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Honestly how hard is it to see that there is a balance issue. You might has well just take the orks right out of the game. You only need 3 races now. Relic please save the orks. Dont leave us in the dark.

Crunk

I agree completely.
The Orks are fun only because Im hardcore enough to stick by them while the Eldar bandwagon riders smoke me with warpspiders.
I do appreciate all the effort Relic makes to listen to us, the players, and i compliment them on their excellent game. However, there is severe imbalance enough to keep these forums flaming forever... unless there is some equality.

The population of Ork players is a great minority, this fact alone should be enough to clue in Relic that the game is great, but the competative players are sick of not having anything to do except make Nob leaders and hope that everything turns out alright. Competative players are sick of losing to the Eldar overpoweredness. We Ork players are sick of having to post the shortcomings we find in our race, and not tactics on how to use our race skillfully.

Eldar + SM + CSM - Orks = Dawn Of War Ladder

Aussiemoo

While everything being said here is all true and right (orks do have a tough time against everything), I hope that we aren't disheartening the relic patching fellows, bacause they just spent a hell of a long time in releasing the patch, and now they go and see that we are still complaining, do you think they, might come to the conclusion that we will always be discontented with the balance issues and just assume that releasing another patch will not fix it?

Sekator

Hmm. yesterday i was inspectin weapon/armor system on tier1. Strangely, the Ork is the only race that doesnt have tier1 heavy infantry. On the contrary, Chaos and SM totally rely on Heavy, and there's no secret in the fact that these form the majority of automatch opponents. So, Orks - infantry, CSM and SM - heavy infantry, Eldar vs Ork - WS - heavy infantry. But the best laughter comes when you realize the fact that Ork is the only race that doesnt have anti-heavi infantry weapon upgrades, while infantry lists as countered on most units and heavy weapons in tier1 for all races. Gettin to the point? Give Ork an ability to build heavy infantry on tier1/2, or give them a way to slaughter heavy infantry. Thats cuz today i fought an SM who used ASM mini-tech. Scouts+Sniper+ASM. Nobz dont do the job here. Really, ork "strength" in melee lies in ruin when you clash sluggas with melee units of other races. I could have won that, given i had at least any ability to do recon. Researchin infiltration and spendin additional 90 req on gretchin specially for that costs me another slugga squad, heck.

Summarizin, we got the Protoss problem here. Older gamers can remember that the Toss/Zerg matchup was unbalanced cuz Toss had only 1-2 useable starts and totally unable to recon, while the Zerg could scout anything and build an exact counter to Protoss startin units. Should the matchup be played with fog of war off, Toss actually got better chances. Ork can be balanced, but, with their basic concept of slow, melee-oriented race, they will never have the versatility other races possess, and will still die to fog of war.

Whew. Pardon my english, bears and vodka distract me from education.

Slow_Runner

@Vertigo: You wouldn't be talking about me vs Chaos where Chaos is satisfied with bombarding my base with defilers instead of blowing it up with AC. The one where I'm referred to as a "cheater" after taking down his/her defilers, predators and chaos sorcerer and lord with Kans and Nobz and some rokkit support? I mean I teched my econ up real quick, had superior economy through the entire game and still when his defiler was out it started strolling to my base, disregarding my Big Mek with a slugga squad tearing up his plasma gens and LPs, secure in the knowledge that unless I have enough rokkits to take the defiler down on it's way over, it would decimate my base quicker than my Big Mek could take out his already crippled stronghold.
Even with just moderate CSM action, it's easy to hold off Orks until Tier 2 where they get defilers or Preds which are close to impossible to take out with Orks if given even moderate infantry support not even mentioning the havoc a sorcerer can cause...
Anyway point well made Charlie, even though I think Trukks are worth considering as an option, even though Defs/dreads/etc. maul them with impunity once they come out.

Sekator

Errmm, more than that, there was an abbreviation in SC - PP, which meant "perfect play". This means that both players play extremely good and dont make mistakes. So balance has two components - PP balance and non-PP balance. Imho, in non-PP Orks are balanced vs everythin save for Chaos. I dont have real trouble fightin 1100-1200 SM, meanin my ratio vs them is about 70%. But, when it comes to PP, HP and damage dont matter anymore. The only things that matter are speed and range. Orks possess neither. Eldar have both. Thats why Orks have problems when fightin skillful players, and Eldar swarm the top ten. Protoss problem again. They were always outranged by Terran and outrunned by Zerg. However, changin that requires very comprehensive thinkin, since the only easy way to do that is to discard the uniquiness of races. So, Relic, cooperate with top ladder players and make the game balanced only based on their win/lose ratio. Thats how balancin is done in the best RTSes. Forum readin might give a clue, but experience of SC/WC3 balancin shows that a minor change to a single game constant may ruin gameplay till the next patch. So, stick to the opinion of the skillful minority. Thats IMHO, ofcourse.

Hirmetrium

nothing like your big orks are screwed lecture on dowr

anyway, well put. btw slow, saw your game vs that chaos player. it was the perfect way to play ork vs chaos, and unfortunately chaos after t2 just lose. its maily due to killer kans, which are more powerful than people think.

eldar are still top ten because people have discovered WL's attually WORK. or course they still have imba t1, where both raps and assults get nerfed vs buildings, and shees remain unchanged. warp's are slowed, but still have the 'eldar op' element of having insane firepower and a jump ability. it's basically a t1 fire prism for orks. no more, no less.

people dont realise how weak chaos ATTUALLY are. if the game hits t3, chaos will always lose. whereas SM have a chance to win at t3, thanks to the droppods.

currently its only defs which stop chaos for getting wtfpwned by the other races. preds are not time effective, so you will lose. mariens die to later anti heavy inf weapons. daemons are in the same class are heavy inf, even worse with reduced PSM damage.

if you think chaos are so imba, play them. i love the sorc and daemons, and about 95% of my games, i never use viehcals. only sac pit. and i win. GG

NaHeMoTh

Notice something here?

Sekator

Errr... Methinks that this thread is bout Ork, huh? So, thanks to Def, Ork vs Chaos matchup is slighly imbalanced in favor of Chaos. Other matchups of Chaos and the amazingly "low" global win ratio for that race listed on the official site are not the subject of this thread.
To add to previous posts, i repeat that i dont consider Orks way underbalanced. They are simply less versatile than other races, highly dependant on BO and strat, highly dependant on timing, highly dependant on mistakes and lag (say, by some reason an SM squad got messed with a slugga squad. now see who gets the worse result if he decides to retreat), dependant on luck and, most importantly, dependant on map. Blood River sux clearly ^^ Aside from the imbalances that will undoubtedly be fixed, Orks are just harder to play than the others and require more skill. I got a lvl 37 WarIII account, was decent in StarCraft and, after 30 or so games as Ork in Warhammer, i cant say that it is impossible to win with them. Stormboyz and micro rule Thats how they were made, the Orkz.

[DS]Charlie

At the highest level of gameplay, Stormboyz and micro won't cut it, Sekator. I need a balanced game to be competitive at that level. I honestly doubt I will hold my spot in the top 10 for very long- probably until I play the next Eldar.

Vertigo

Yep, what a travesty. You were dead meat! And then he just sits there... and sits there.... At first I thought he was taunting you, then I realized he was SCARED of your LP2s. 2 Defilers vs. 2 LP2s? I then had one of my "WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!" moments, shaking my monitor. If a Chaos player is going to cheeze, at least do it properly. He gave you enough to time to build, what, 3 Kans before he attacked?

Kans DO work pretty well if the Chaos player lets you get them in mass, but that's generally not a 1v1 solution. That's a LONG time. Kans build SLOW.

Sekator

At the highest level of gameplay, Stormboyz and micro won't cut it, Sekator. I need a balanced game to be competitive at that level. I honestly doubt I will hold my spot in the top 10 for very long- probably until I play the next Eldar.

Heck, I was sayin that there is literally no PP balance in Warhammer. I didnt really get to highest lvl to judge, ive an exam session, a job and other stuff that makes playin 24/7 impossible for me, but at rank 1100-1200 its fine. Probably even higher. Btw, Protoss problem was never solved. They still die to other races if the opponent doesnt make any mistakes. That's the destiny of all slow CC races. imho.

As an idea, why not make tankbustas heavy infantry with Nob leaders? Judgin from Relic's ideas with SM and CSM, an all-purpose unit is not against game ideology. Its still a drawback in terms of race uniqueness, but it could solve balance issues until Relic comes with some radical Ork solution (new units, perhaps?) in Winter Assault. BTW, there's nothing bad in adding new content via patches. Blizzard does that. Cavedog did that. Why not Relic?

Good luck to ya, Charlie

Fitz

Good post charlie, excellent use of diagrams.

n0z3k1ll3r

Big problem there in the form of infiltrating NL, not something I'd care to go up against. If they got NL I'd have to say they'd need to lose Infiltrate. Heavy infantry seems fine though.

Sekator

Positive. Infiltrate is pretty useless at the moment.

Metavirulent

I'm not saying that ork is fine, they definitely need help vs vehicles. I'll leave it up to Relic to fix this.

Until then, I'll give my 2 cents how we can survive until the patch:
- trukks come a bit later now but still at the same time as trakks did, their damage to building and light infantry is reduced, but their damage vs heavy infantry is unchanged. They do a good job vs infantry although their building killing is slowed down (but still possible). If the SM/CSM only do infantry spamming as you suggested, they have all reason to fear trukks. Sure, trukks suck vs vehicles, that's why you infantry crush a fast techer. If they still get to vehicles and you have trukks only, the fast trukks need to be elsewhere.
- mad doks build a lot slower now but are very nice in an ork infantry army. A bit of juice and a bit of healing can save your day.

Sekator

Just made a test. Created a Chaos aka. What came out:

1)Defilers are unbalanced
2)A squad of 8 CSM with overwatch beats an Ork LP and Waaagh Banner while both shootin at them at the same time. Gretchins included. Personally, i dont find a tac squad killin two defensive buildings amusin.
3)Ork can win vs Chaos if they dont build generators and rush main base as soon as possible. That is funny.

OjKa

Nice post, well, the diagram side of it i thought was good, was kinda long for me to read but i am sure what you wrote is true.
:matrix: :heyhey:
:boohoo:

Grabnutz

Charlie, what is that keeps you up there?
Your one of the top ten, is this because of micro skills or build order, or what?
I used to be ok as orks, I won 3 of 6 automatches (I'm not a great player, but I played team games mostly). Now though I get owned early game nearly every time. Mainly due to mass infantry, especially warp spiders and Marines. I get cut down before cc, and cc is a joke when they dance or have a CL / FC anyway. I can get to nobs just about, but they I have so few oeks left they die aswell being unsuported. How the hell am I supposed to mass enough troops to counter this when I have to spend on banners all the time. And how can I tech when all my other reqs going into reinforcing, and rebuilding dead banners?
I just can't figure it out. I've watched replays, and I don't seem to be doing anything diffeent apart from micr skills (which I lack). Big Mek helps but as soon as there commander comes out (before the big mek most cases) he dies 90% of the time. the FC / CL is now more spammable than he is if you upgrade him.
HEEEEEEEEEEELP

Rapier

I think you have to tech to NL as fast as possible, and avoid fighting with the sluggas until then (unless you can do it by an LP/Banner, and preferablly both).

Basically you can't attack until tier 1.5, or you'll probably be too far behind and unable to recover (Unless you find they're teching). You might get some headway with BM harass, providing you a) don't get upgrade for him. B) don't let him die.

Ideally you get docs out as fast as possible too. The best time to attack is when you have just got say, 2nd doc, with two more building so can get that fighting juice immunity. (on Stormboyz or sluggas/shootas, depending on circumstance).

Although so far I've only been able to do that against opponents who are still affraid of Ork bases, and ork teching =/

n0z3k1ll3r

Early on with orks you basically have to either play very aggressively (all out rush), or very defensively (combat around your base guns). Neither is ideal, the former is riskier but possibly more profitable, the latter is safer generally.

Grabnutz

To fight around my base guns means they charge me. That has nevr happened. They just sit there shooting at the LP / banner until its dead, should I charge its a simple matter of switching targets. Rarely have I seen the LP fire back anymore due to its range reduction.
I can sometimes make an attck that kills al their troops early, but then I get to the base and each building takes half a year to go down, all the while they're re building.
Maybe I've just gotten obscenely bad after 1.3, but I can't remember sluggas doing so rubbishly Vs buildings.

Rapier

My rational for not advocating that statagy comes back to one of the Mantra's that charlie posts (which I agree with).

Ork Infantry < other races infantry.

So an all out rush won't work if they do it too. Since an all out rush works best for the other races vs ork... when people start employing that more, you'll have to do your best without that option =/.

timotheus

status of orkz - dead

not even viable in team games, really.

BiggestMek

Ork LPs and Banners are no longer defensive. Orks rely so much on tech, losing a banner can mean losing your window of opportunity. With LPs being worthless vs every race now, Ork end up having to guard their LPs and banners rather than let the LPs and banners guard them.

Other races can sit behind their LPs while ork are held at bay. The ork, on the other hand, must sit in front of their LPs to guard their resources.