[DS]Charlie

I made this post in another thread but it was worthy of being made its own topic. So here you are.


There's a complex explanation for the way the ladder is, and how this game is balanced. There's also a simple one. Allow me to give you the simple one.

Chaos:
The best Chaos players aren't playing (GerancE, Korbah). Why? The reputation surrounding Chaos is that of "abuser." And indeed, in order to win with Chaos (since all effective 1.2 strats- i.e., horrortech- were nerfed) you must abuse sorc spamming and defilers. Thus, any remaining Chaos players are either not good enough to take Chaos to the top or not wanting to abuse Chaos and unfairly get to the top. Thus, Chaos is low.

Eldar:
Always have, and probably always will (until the balance team gets their head out of their arse and listens to some pros) be the uber civ. The Eldar domination of the top right now is more thorough and more ridiculous than the Seer Council/Conceal days. Ork is hopeless vs Eldar- even more now than in 1.2... which is saying a lot. With the guardian rush coming to prevalance, any Eldar player can own to the top with a bit of training. It's disgusting.

SM:
Still competitive, as shown by a number of top ladder players, but simply cannot stand up to Eldar at the highest ranks. On the top mainly because they stand a better chance against Eldar than the other races.

Ork:
There are "two" Ork names in the top 20. Both of them are me. That's not to brag, it's to show how pathetic the balance is. Apparently, either because:

1. I am god-like
2. I have learned some tricks
3. Other players of SM/CSM haven't caught on yet

I am on the top. Despite my yearnings that option #1 were the 100% truth, I must say in all honesty it is more due to options #2 and #3. That being, I have a lot of things, including micro, up my sleeve, and many SM/CSM players have failed to realize that in 1.3, more than 1.2 ever was, Orks are a one-trick-pony. I don't even need to say it. You all know what Orks do. Once players learn that, there will be 0 Orks in the top. All my Ork brothers have quit in frustration, even the (honestly) skilled PuReBall.

Ork vs Eldar at equal skill levels is now officially a joke. Eldar players I ran over in 1.2 doing anything from grot rush to 3 minute slugga mass can now compete with me at the top. Unheard of Eldar players like "tiran" and "GidaN" who were (and still are) absolute rubbish can beat 99% of Ork players in the world. When I play an Eldar of equal skill (see AriXar, SeleCT, Viper) it is (literally) a free win for them. I'm not even joking; it is laughable. AriXar has quit the game already because, "this is a one-race game, and I don't find it fun anymore." And he's an Eldar player. SeleCT, playing Orks for 1 week (and beating 90% of players) said of Ork vs Eldar (in his typical broken English), "this is rofl," and "what a fuck," "WS are so lame."

So, as it turns out my simple explanation was not so simple. But you all understand. Let me summarize with a diagram that will reveal ALL to you who do not feel like reading what I have just said: (each > represents balance skew)

1.2 Balance:
Eldar >>>> Orks > SM >>>>> CSM

1.3 Balance:
Eldar >>>>>>> CSM >>>> SM = Orks


If you're listening, balance team- you've made a big booboo. Now fix it before WCG.

P.S.
Eldar -> :noball: <- Ork

Ork -> :wowsers: <- Eldar

Inst

So what should be done about eldar? Nerf fof? Make ws require stones to research? And delay soul shrine to two stones?
And how is nob shoota performing against ws at top levels? Fail, am i rite?
And a question for a pro player, short of ws tech, what beats warlock rush?

n0z3k1ll3r

Have to point out that by your diagram we now have 1 balanced matchup, compared to none in 1.2.

Penitent

Poor, poor orkses. Don't worry, they'll be the most overpowered race in the game in the next patch, judging by the way things go.

Slow_Runner

SeleCT played Orks? Found them broke vs Eldar? OK then. Still the fact that Orks are low on the ladder is also a result of them being the most difficult race to learn. Not saying that Everything about the Eldar vs Ork matchup is good and fine, but at least one reason for Orks being low on the ladder is that there a fewer players going for Orks than for other races.

Da_Fish

That's totally true when a chaos player reaches mid game, but they are still screwed if they reach late game because defilers CAN'T stand up to 6 laspreds(I've seen it).

But sadly....that if in bold won't help anybody....

iamthedave

" Orks being low on the ladder is that there a fewer players going for Orks than for other races"

Doesn't help that their troops are fragile and they need to spend... what is it? 600 req to get to tier 2? Not including Pile of Gunz cost.

That right there strikes me as BS. When SM and CSMs need to spend 175/75 or whatever and Eldar spend even less, there's something MAJORLY screwy going on. ANd let's not forget that Orks are the ONLY race that can be easily backed up down the tech tree...

MoschBoy

well, the situation is not SO harsh. orks had a relatively good chance to win in 1.2 (WS - issue aside); Problem then was the trakk; now with trakk effectively removed, we need tier 2 to get a compative unit (NL). And paying 600 as u said to effectively get 1 new unit, thats a bit strange.

AND despite all horror stories We stil CAN win. only not in higher ranking Automatch.

OK, forget it. I am f**** up with this too.

savagedave

Vs Chaos and SM in 1.2 I think Orks chances of winning were slightly better than "relative"...

MoschBoy

yeah.lol. which made it funny to play as orks "g". btw:vs good SM/CSM players in 1.2 it was always a 50:50 chance of winning (1600+ area); below SM /CSM were screwed, thats true

btw: dont forget eldar: they were uber in 1.2 and STILL are in 1.3

n0z3k1ll3r

NLs are way earlier than Tier 2. They're Tier 1.5, effectively the same time as SM/Chaos get their Armoury and heavy weapons.

MoschBoy

well, the old problem with "What is ork tier2?"

i defined ork tier 2 with 4 banners + PoG

OjKa

Nice post Charlie, i hope it does not go unnoticed

TBS edit: smilies culled :sniper: :baloons:

NathrakH

i think this post was just a chance for you to say "i pwn j00"

2 stars.

Chris

Pretty accurate yeah. Orks only 'dominated' C/SM up to a certain point, after say 1600 on the ladder it became very possible to beat orks with C/SM, I was even finding it fairly easy at the 1500 level... Whereas Eldar dominate at pretty much all levels over C/SM.

I also disagree with the balance skew for 1.2. I think that SM and CSM were much closer together, but other than that it all looks pretty accurate...

iamthedave

"well, the old problem with "What is ork tier2?"

i defined ork tier 2 with 4 banners + PoG"

Yeah, that's what I meant, too.

santiago4ever

You are correct ^.^

It is really fun to struggle tier 1, I love fighting at a disadvantage, except when that disadvantage is the guardian rush on small maps... but once you reach tier 2 you can just wave your opponent byebye, you don't need sorc AND defilers, except against the really good eldars. Sorc spam is enough most of the time. screw chaos, GOGO Random!!! I think chaos without the defiler is pretty balanced even though it's boring as hell because of the limited unit choices. The sorc is our equalizer for being pushed around by eldar whole tier 1 :nod:

I mean, is any of the 1.2 top chaos players actually playing chaos seriously 1.3? I saw Thor up at the top a couple of days ago but he hasn't played that much either.

soon I will get back to my computer *droolz* but I will keep playing my random account and pretty much ignore my chaos account. I want to keep my opponents guessing instead of thinking "Oh, it's Santiago... well only one thing to do then... RUSH!!!". I think the last 10 games on my chaos account was 2 minute rushes by BM + sluggas/mass scouts/Guardians + FS... And I actually lost almost half of them :fencing:

Chaos = :gnight: right now.

Oh and brilliant analyze on the other races and matchups as well, I think I mostly agree with you

And the inflated number of chaos in top 100 first couple of weeks? Bandwagon losers who can do nothing but mass CSM and go defilers. They probably all swapped back to eldar when they lost a couple of games in a row to guardian rush though... good riddance we didn't want them anyway. Now just to wait a couple of more weeks for it to become even more obvious that Chaos isn't THAT OP 1.3 ^.^

Devran

Agreed with Charlie.

AsiLuc

Right on! Sing it, sister!
Seriously, I agree. I played muchos Ork in 1.1-1.2, but now I'm a pitiful SM-player.
(I got a new nick to play SM)
Why does the balance-team not fix it? Do they think it's fair now? Do they think the Eldar are equal to the SM=CSM=Ork? It would be nice to hear their opinion about this. Hear the people! Open you eyes!

OjKa

The balance team couldn't balance a four-legged chair
:monkey: :deal:
:rip:

BlueJackal

I am appalled at the number of unused units in Dawn of War.

Whether or not they are actually unused completely in 1v1 automatch, they have a very limited role, or see little/no play:

Raptors/Assault Marines (v. limited)
Landspeeders/Vypers/Falcons (they are worthwhile to a degre)
Hellfire <<<<<<<<<<<< Defiler, in every way
Rhinos for both races (nigh-useless... maybe for covering your plasma marines?!)
Whirlwinds (v. limited, heh, for a while I forgot SM had these)
Rangers (line of sight?)
Banshees (good for an initial rush.... against *some* players)
Uber units. (Good mainly for when you've already won, or they might make you lose if you were on even ground/winning slightly)
Obliterators (barely cost effective vrs. massing CSM with the appropriate weapons, and requires Tier 3 and a Daemon Pit.. and a Relic?)
Horrors (sure they are somewhat good against Ork, but you can get the same result with massing CSM?)
Possessed Space Marines (good late game, but if you get them at Tier 2 instead of vehicles, you're likely screwed.)

Anyone feel otherwise? I'm sure there will be a few, but that's from my experience.

Gods, that's freaking sad.

Quitch

Well, personally I'd add Terminators, Land Raiders, Killa Kans, Wraith thingies (lords?), Avatar (in a combat role)...

Oh, and I'd say Banshees may have snuck onto the useless list since their 1.3 nerf. Has the Seer Council been seen in serious play since its over-nerf?

A staggering number of useless troops.

When this game first came out some people said it reminded them on Total Annihilation. Looking at the size of the useless unit list, I'm beginning to agree.

Capitalist

Tankbustaz deserve a place high on that list of useless units. Seriously, they suck sooo bad. They're an expensive, slow moving, piss poor counter to vehicles with abysmal combat abilities (approx. 1/3rd the dps of a slugga boy in CC and about equal at range) against everything else. Their anti building damage is even pitiful.

And as a CC counter to walker vehicles, they are incredibly sad. The walkers spend 90% of their time in kill motions, meaning that tankbustaz never actually do any damage.

I have to agree with Charlie. This game isn't any better balanced than it was in 1.2.

savagedave

Landspeeders are still great in IMO. Hellfires less so now, but they were handy in 1.2 against Trakks. Whirlwinds need lower price I think. Killa Kan's are great, don't see why people complain about them. They're fine at what they do. And I still use ASM, though they are somewhat less efficicient than in 1.2 also.

AVD

@ BlueJackal

I happen to increase the use of WWs as SM in my games (sometimes getting them even before Dreads). They are damn expensive, but vs. Eldar middle game I found Dreads to die way too quickly to mixed DR and BL mobs, which do give me a problem (I'm not in the high league of the game).

They are tricky to keep alive but if I manage to get 3 of them and keep them relatively safe behind my troops I manage to pound infantry to oblivion and use ML squads vs vehicles rather effectively (everything but Defilers for obvious reasons).

I (personally) wouldn't say WWs are useless, just too bloody expensive for the brittle platform they are. I still use them though, quite regularly even.

The_Scientist

charlie is pretty right here folks.

altho the >> arrows didn't make for provisions of sm being fairly closely balanced with eldar (with the exception of the fp).

I thoroughly enjoyed 1.2 as an sm player, being an nderdog vs the randomness of ork, struggling to compete with eldar, usually beating chaos...

sure it wasn't -totally- balanced, but at least it wasn't the crap it is now. Now my options are 1 ) yey it's eldar, here is my bumhole (only because sm vs e is my worst matchup, only amplified by scout nerf), 2) ork? Why is an ork still playing dow? 3) chaos - Omfg i have to win in tier 1 somehow even tho he has 10 pop of troops, else I get sorc/defilered into the mud. 4) yes of course sm mirrors are just riveting.

I'll note I took half the losses getting to the top 20 with eldar than i did with sm. It's just not hard at all.

Vertigo

Kans are kinda odd. There are times when they are just great to have, such as vs. Defilers. But the slow speed makes them just plain awkward to use.

To go on a quick semi-side topic, regarding awkward: Like a lot of Ork units (such as TBs, SBs, Doks), Kans may be statistically decent (or even awesome) on paper but just a plain PITA to put into practice. Having things like slower units, AV grenades on light-armored ground troops instead of heavy-armored jump troops, and the very micro-unfriendly FJ abilility make Orks very awkward to play. The tech tree is also awkward, with light vehicles appearing rather late, making them hard to deploy when tier 2 AV weapons are already out. And then the heavy vehicles are even later.

At least as far as Orks go, maybe this awkwardness is by design, since Orks aren't supposed to be very "elegant" in battle. But fluffy though it may (or not) be, it's not a tremendous amount of fun to play.

I'm not claiming that awkward = automatically underpowered, but I do feel it makes an impact. With Doks, we suffer through the UI troubles because the payoff is so good. With Kans/TBs, I find them much harder to use effectively than they should be. I've only got so much brainpower per second, and that awkwardness hurts.

Is it just me?

savagedave

Well they aren't really harder to use than any other walker are they? Aside from their speed, which perhaps necessitates doing something to draw AV fire away in the time in takes them to close, or using the Big Mek tank zappa.

BlueJackal

It'd be great if you could just click on Fightin' Juice and have it apply to the nearest squad (or attached squad! Yeesh!). Or have another button so that would occur if you didn't want to micro it.

Wraithlords are sort of spiffy, and quicker than other walkers, but there's no reason to use them with Brightlances and Dark Reapers (Brightlances cost too much power to sustain both types of units.)

Noted regarding WWs and Landspeeders... and I've only skirmish experience with Ork.. so yeah, tankbustaz/kans too...

Bleh. I should seriously stop playing DoW and study more or find another game. I play, enjoy a couple games and then just realize that the game is pretty inflexible.

Quitch

Kans come out later than any walker and IIRC, at the same time as nob squads. They're also the slowest walker I believe. Is it hardly any wonder they see little use?

Vertigo

I used to think that, too. I mean, they aren't that much slower, right? But it's amazing how much difference that lower speed seems to make... to me at least. And having them come out significantly later is a problem. CC walkers aren't as useful once laz pred weaponry hits the field. The Dread gets a free pass, because at tier 3 the DS ability completely changes its role.

The WL is pretty bad statistically, but not awkward. It comes out at the normal time, and gets where it needs to be in a speedy fashion.

With the Kan, I often can't have it when I really need it, and don't need it as much when I can finally get it.

Dibujante

Kans are nice if they ever get used.

Hell, boyz are nice if they ever get used. But as I've found from playing Ork since beta, Ork is currently strongest before it actually builds anything. Every building and unit that Ork produces is simply going to make it weaker per cost. Simply put, there is no Ork unit that can be described as powerful without attaching a huge "but" to it.

Slugga boyz: Mediocre melee, they often lose 1v1 fights to Space Marines. Can be danced. Extremely how hitpoints ensure that they die against dancers or any concentration of ranged troops. Due to the cost of waaagh banners, the first time you build any particular army of sluggas, they cost 50 req a piece, handy, no?

Shoota boyz: Crappy ranged attack, melee has been pushed well below competitive levels, and all of the above still applies. Not even worth mentioning.

Big Mek: Excellent melee capabilities, strong in combat, due to animation invulnerability, handy set of gadgets. Thank goodness the build time is nerfed straight to hell whenever you try to turn him from a competent commander to a useful unit, or he would actually help Ork.

Stormboyz: Let's take slugga boyz (and all the weaknesses therein) and add 15 req to the cost! Sorry, stormboyz bring nothing new to the table except for the ability to tie up heavy weapons, forcing them to just melee the stormboyz to death.

Tankbustaz: Alright, now we're talking! Rather than wastefully adding 15 req to the cost, tankbustaz go whole hog with a 30 req price increase! It's a good thing they don't do any more damage with rokkits than sluggas/shootas, and it's also a good thing that they can't, say, take much more damage (extra hitpoints are nice, but they're inf_high hitpoints, meaning that it's basically paper-machê armor).

Nob Leaders: These units are good. They're better squad leaders than any other squad leader. They cost an arm and a leg to tech up to, come in small numbers and can be danced. Oh, and it's just lame to focus a build around massing as many nob leaders as one can. Where did the "green horde" go?

Wartrukks: Yay! The Ork Tier 2 mainstay vehicle! It can be brought down by warpsiders, space marines, or just grots with the 'flu. Not an effective vehicle, but at least it's cheap. Might be useful if Ork infantry actually made a reasonable battlefield presence.

Wartrakks: Forget it. These come so late in the game, and are so worthless, that you're better off getting Orky Fort and the Warboss.

Nobz: See Nob Leader, except that you can mass these and they come even later. They don't make an appearance and have too many weaknesses to actually do anything. Taken in a vacuum, though, they're reasonable units.

Warboss: Great fun, good Ork leader for his cost. Doesn't offset the handicap of just playing Ork.

Killa Kan: Has the hitpoints and damage that made the dreadnought so useful. Has a turn of speed on it that even platforms laugh at. Cannot make it to front lines effectively, fails at its primary purpose (unless we assume that it's an extremely expensive mount for a single bigshoota).

Looted Tank: Think a trakk, with a bit more shooty, and a lot more hitpoints! Oh, and at the top of the tech tree. Oh, and its arty cannon isn't really that useful. Oh, and trakks didn't do much ranged damage to start with. And it costs 3 pop. Doesn't complement Ork, or, in fact, do much of anything to begin with.

Grots: Rock on! 10 of 'em, can tangle up troops, build/repair while infiltrating, move quickly and have hilarious voice-acting. I fully approve.

Buildings: We get a 10% price discount! And a 50% hitpoint loss...and a number of light guns that do up to 20dps to their enemies, assuming that the enemies obligingly get within range, which they really don't need to. The 150 req pricetag on the waaagh banner makes Ork tech the most expensive tech in game, and the 800 hitpoints make sure that Ork tech is also the most vulnerable. It's not like we need tech to be competent at all or anything like that, right?

Squiggoth: Simply awesome unit but it, like all end-game units, comes out too late to actually matter.

Mad Doks: Handy. Well, maybe. A lot of micro goes into them and all they accomplish is that they force the enemy to dance for a while longer. Still, they have their uses and might even help Ork if the rest of Ork weren't so useless. However, their fighting juice ability needs less micro.

I've played Ork since beta and we've always been second rate to massed marines, any Eldar and probably even ourselves, if we tried hard enough. I'm throwing in the towel, my waaaghin' days are done. There's a reason why Orks fill out 9% of the player base, and it's not the learning curve. They're broken. A few imbalances in 1.2 kept people from seeing that they were broken, but they were broken then. From now on, I'm playing anything but Ork. Play Ork for long enough and you'll feel the same way. Have a nice day.

Regards,
Dibujante

Boomstar

Know how ya feel, I've thrown in the towel with orks as well.I've been playing since beta too.

Seridos

I fully agree with Dibujante and boomstar

[DS]Charlie

Dibujante said it better than I could have. Dibujante- you nailed the status of Orks so hard that you could start a religion on your status dying for all the other status descriptions.

Today I played 3 games on my smurf name that was in the top 20 (and no longer is) and it's clear people are starting to catch on. And as they catch on, Orks fall... Let me describe each game for you.

1. Vs Chaos on Battle Marshes. Some Chaos fuck noob masses 3 squads of CSM, that effectively null all my boyz + BM. He takes one of my points with his massing skill, then in order for me to push him out I must mass my boyz. The problem is, I need a lot of boyz to have a chance, and my boyz + nobs are more expensive than his squads. By the time I push him out of my base he has 2 defilers. Even though I kill his entire army + sorc, and retreat with small losses, by the time the defilers get to my base (20 seconds), his sorc is back, teleports in, casts his imba spells, and insta-kills 2 of my rokkit squads. The defilers chew through my HQ in seconds. Oh and did I mention I couldn't make rokkits until near the end of the game because he destroyed 1 of my waaagh banners?

2. Vs Eldar on MoM. He rushes me with FS + guards. I only made 2 sluggas for capping, planning on teching. His FS spells wtfpwn 1 squad. Then his WS come in and guide-> bam 2nd squad down. My BM harasses and kills some. Then he dies to dancing. Despite having all my points upgraded, he destroys my Pile of Gunz, 2 LP's, and 3 waaagh banners all in the first 8 minutes of the game. How? Well, WS are fucking strong and Ork buildings are fucking weak, that's how. I remake BM 3 times, and kill around 2-3 WS each time. I can't tech to nobs because every time I get close he destroys another banner, or PoG with a haywire. End game stats: my economy greater by 2,000 points, but I never could get to nobs and he had haywires + exarchs immediately.

3. SM on Fallen City. I fear the deadly scout harass so I go for a boyz rush to hopefully overtake him early. To my dismay I realize he has decided to tech with impunity, upgrading his ironclad LP's and using only a few SM squads. Still, I have so many boyz I own his first LP and chase his army. He runs his army all about the map for over 15 minutes. Dancing around LP's, I lose the majority of my army but maintain reinforcement. He rebuilds FC 3 times... I lose BM once and it's gg... he has plasma scouts and despite me killing most of his army, his FC over and over, and all his LP's, his economy is still good enough to keep pumping.

So gg 3 losses... and now I, the one who has played Ork longer, higher, and harder than probably anyone else in DoW, is debating whether or not to quit this game.

Chris

I couldn't help laughing when I read that. Irony 4tw.

komninosm

Dib:
Slugga boyz are not mediocre melee for cost. Ranged better than banshees.
Shoota boyz not terrible at range for cost. Pretty damn good in melee too.
Nob Leaders OP. You can hardly dance them with their uber pistol of death and destruction either. It even rapes buildings more cost effectivelly than a rockit launcher.
etc

Dibujante

You're not adding the cost of the waaagh banners when looking at sluggas. With waaagh banners, each slugga/shoota costs about 50 req, which is bad for its cost. Early on, Ork cannot outmass SM/Chaos, which is necessary for Ork to be competitive.
Nob leader is overpowered. It needs to be fixed, but even it is not good enough to help Ork.
Regards,
Dibujante

MoschBoy

NL OP? ok, nerf them; back to 50 pop, and a bit more cost. is this ok?

man, your are speaking basically of THE ORK ARMY . We have nothing else. and MOST ppl dont have a problem with NL (basically every other races).

ok, looked at as a single unit, NL are a bit too strong. BUT: looking at the whole orc situation... they are not OP enough

DoctorX

Pardon my appallingly stupid question, but we are all only talking 1v1 Automatch and the ladder are we not?

What's been everyone's general opinions of these very same civs in 2v2 team games, on or off Automatch?

Quitch

The real kicker is that orks should operate in large hordes, then relic decided they would be the only race to operate without a squad cap, thus ensuring they would be the only race that didn't operate in hordes.

Nice.

Dibujante

I'm not saying that NL need to be fixed *now*. I agree with what you said, taken as a single unit, they're overpowered. Taken in the whole of the Ork spectrum, they could be buffed a lot more and still be underpowered. However, that wouldn't make for a very fun Ork game.
Regards,
Dibujante

The_Scientist

werd. As an sm, I relish each and every game i play vs ork now, because i no longer have to worry about balancing survival with tech to ml for trakks...or other preparations should he go for other things. Nowadays it's just boyz, and all races can simply tech anti-inf weapons with impunity and loller their asses off.

Mind you sm vs ork was my fave matchup in 1.2, underdog but underrated, the intrinsics of sm are something i still enjoy, and so much must be done with a singular armor type of heavy_med that chugs along at average speed. Things like fof, crazy demons and nob leaders don't cover us, organization and a general leetness of base troop was the order of the day.

But frankly facing eldar or chaos each and every automatch is grating my nerves. I don't want to charge chaos head on, when he has forced labour, guaranteeing an extra squad, an advantage that stays even to the 10/10 pop cap. But if I don't, i'm fucked to sorc/defiler spam....FINE i'll get through it with word and better skill soon enough, but ffs. And eldar? a good matchup yes, but even tho I'm not bad, i'm not one of the two top sm players, and frankly it's not like they shake hands with eldar before fighting for their lives either. Tasty guardians...tasty tasty guardians. I remember when select copies were known and laughed at. Now it's guard push every game.


So there we go, 10 pop vs 8 with a lesser hero in tier 1, or disgustingly owned in tier 2. OR alternatively I can cling to dear life and fight elves. Which ain't so bad really, the first 1000000 times. mirror? What did i choose a 4 race rts for? Orks? You belong in WoW boyz.

HaXxorIzed

The way I see things, orkses have one or two things that are somewhat suspect in their army, but apart from that they suck. Mass heavy weapon boyz or a few other strats is all they have left. The spamminess of maddoks and the power of nob leaders is probably suspect to allegations of overpowered ness, but Dib and charlie is right on here - THEY SUCK as an army. Only versus space marines are they any real good.

On another note, charlie was beaten by android in the game he's referencing. No suprises about that eh :P

As far as I am concerened, orkses need fixing, Space marines need slighty cheaper powergen/armoury and a better hellfire for CAP, not cost, Eldar needs their guardians and ws dealt with, their prisim and falcon strengthened so as to be decent AV units, their platforms tieupabble and their economy looked at, and chaos needs defilers to be nerfed and sorc to be nerfed, and their horrors made stronger, alongside the predator.

Sps

You know I sort of agree there but in terms of eldar being the cheapest and ork costing more I am sorry but its plain bullshit just look at the cost of those spiders and the full half pop that will get wtfpwned by full half orkypop, and i mean RAPED, especially if ork makes up the diff in rokkits:

here is a little quick off the top of my head table, with ork their inf is weird as i couldn't figure out the number of squads - so say build 6 extra squads pre tier 2. With less squads power goes down a bit req goes up double but nowhere near enough at 35 per slugga to even approach making the cost fair. I know these starts for ork vary anywhere from 3 to 5 squads but I included the max nob leaders possible in half pop:

Chaos tier 2 full cost ballpark:

Barracks 250
gen 165
Armory 175/50
3xLP 150

Cultist 80
CL 270/90
4xtacs 2000
Tier 2 research 250/100

Total cost 3340/240************************************************************

SM tier 2 full cost ballpark:

Barracks 250
gen 165
Armory 175/50
3xLP 150

Scout 90
FC 260/85
4xtacs 1600
Tier 2 research 250/100

Total cost 2940/235***********************************************************

Eldar full tier 2 vs ork***************************vs sm/chaos

Aspect 100
Gen 135
Shrine 140/50
WS stone 120/30**************reaper stone 120
3xlp 90
2x ws at full 1160/290 **********2x reap at full 1020/60
Farseer 240/80
3 guards w/lock 975/135
Tier 2 250/100

Total cost 3210/685:jaw:**************3070/425***************
(clear now why eldar gens are 135 a piece?)
*********************************************
Ork (will go with 6 squads built (+1 free) all with NL for full half pop)

Hut 225
Bannersx4 600 nl at 3 (leaders pre tier 2 same as eldar)
Pog 150/50
Gen 150
3xlp 120
mek 190/60
Slugga 6 1290/175

Total ork cost: 2725/285
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Tier 2 achieved with 4 banners as the shop is available. And this is how I have defined orky tier 2 as all races have achieved tier 2 when vehicles become available.


As for orky squads - I know 7x4+NL would be very weak in most cases but its enough to outsquad as a CC unit any race including a 5x tac wielding chaos (by 2 squads). Now less squads will yield more req but less power so lets leave it at this.

I wont go into efficiency of units but in terms of sm chaos - add heavy weapons - which bring them above eldar and in terms of how much you pay:

1 csm - most expensive
2 sm
3 eldar
4 ork - least expensive

I am too lazy to go into research or fence the numbers with people - its pretty obvious also that those banners cost you time and nothing else. I've done a full research list and in terms of speed ork>sm>chaos>eldar, in terms of cost ork>sm>chaos>eldar, in terms of immediate benefit from said research eldar>sm>chaos>ork ,greater meaning faster and cheaper and/or better.

Dibs now that you have the mod tools, with your knowledge of the game, you will realise its not costs and its pointless to argue numbers, but if you insist its cost well, ork are the living proof of "you get what you pay for"

Maybe this is why eldar is left alone, maybe they'll get changed, I have been on the receiving end of spiders as ork so I certainly can see the problem and the only possible solution similar to what was done to possessed, not a straight nerf but a "scale down".

As for ork problem, in light of underlying numbers my conclusion is that time and to some degree efficiency of produced units is against ork at every step, mostly because CC units are vastly inferior to ranged. UP the cost of ork, but screw the crap banner system it is not working - main issue being time.

or here is a genius idea, and sorry to be such a sarcastic prick about it (ok im not):

Why does NL does not grant pop? Its a "doh", it would solve a shitload of orky problems at least at the nl stage.

Why can all races build before having free cap, but ork has to wait until cap is free, shouldn't ork be the one massing?

Dow cc vs ranged is broken - nerf accuracy on the move for all races. Sure sluggas can pick marines of as they retreat but more often than not sluggas will die to marines playing leapfrog...

I agree ork is the underdog but please dont throw unfounded arguments around, I am well aware numbers do not a game make but ork do not cost more, and you simply get what you pay for.

santiago4ever

erm, Eldars has vehicles available with SS + Webway Gates... Plats takes vehicle pop do they not, also at the time the SS goes up eldar gets econ upgrades available as well as squad leaders, something the other races gains upon their tier 2

Your other tier 2 marks were pretty accurate though. Or not... which C/SM will go with 1 cult/scout squad? sure the 1 cult squad is somewhat feasible as an anti-guardrush dual CSM build opener... but 1 scoutsquad? O.o

Oh and eldar can fasttech to vehicles while keeping the enemy away with pretty much nothing but 3 guard squads + FS... not quite that feasible with the other races...

MoschBoy

however, eldar still have the best economy. and finally eldar is more likely NOT to die on their way up to tier 2. As for the ork - eldar matchup: for eldar there is no REAL need to go to tier 2. WS are enough. they will loose a few more, but they DONT NECESSARILY NEED AN EXCARCH (Vs ork).If cleverly used they can kill an ork without hitting tier 2;

Sps

Those webways cost, plats cost and btw are NOT vehicles they are heavy infantry- and i did not include them in cost, had i included them in cost eldar cost would be 50% higher at 100 per webway gate, 140/60 per shuriken and 140/105 per brightlance. There is no point in discussing two relatively mutualy exclusive options.

I dont argue that global req 1 should be pushed to post mfw, but so should the power research be pushed sooner to post mfw not post support portal as it is obvious just how power hungry eldar are.

As for one cultist - I went for maximum price in the example - not a regular BO in which 2-3 cultists would gain eco quicker, if you want a 3 cs build or even two csm price falls far below that of an eldar and heavy weapons barely equalize it - same for scouts with sm who btw also add the "outsquaded sucker!!!!" situation.

Now if you really stop and look at this from a fair persepctive it is obvious that the correct conclusion would be "hmmm eldar are not so cheap after all".

I was watching several replays (insane's) from dow sanct this morning and all that eco crap is unfounded as eldar generally had a 2-10% power advantage and pretty much same eco until much later in the game, and in games he had the advantage it was enemy +98/+20 to insanes +102+30 which in light of the expense outlined earlier is not very unfair.

now you do realise this thread was about ork, maybe I should exclude any reference to the word "eldar" from my posts as it tends to "upset" people - seemingly.

And as a newb ork - I also have another dumb question. Why does ork pop suffer from banner loss? Other races pay a one time fee and its all good. Sure they lose armory they lose TECH but not pop. This sets ork waaaaaaay back to start of the game as first the player has to go get the pop, then get the tech and then pray he has enough req for boys to make that tech useful. usually the gods dont listen to people that go "OH SHIT" in the middle of such prayer tho.

IMO that is the single biggest flaw in ork design - losing pop. I havent tested this, but from what i remember not even eldar lose pop via destroyed webways (support cap yes pop no as leaders are more than sufficient to account for it)

Sterling

And here come Sps screaming "Buff Eldar!!111!" again...