Slow_Runner

Large update on 6.12.05 to clear up some overlap.

Some of you might remember the Odd damage discrepensies thread I did a while back on some of the strange things we managed to dig up from the dps numbers (like: Dark Reapers do a whopping 0.35 damage to vehicles _med and _high and building_high, at range, beating grots by 0.05 (go grots!) ).

As there seems to be quite a lot of similar bizarre numbers out there in WA, I figured that now that Excedrin has kindly dug in the .rgd files and excavated some sweet dps for the continued happiness of the community, we ought to start compiling these values again both for the sake of fun and for the odd chance that the balance team might take a look at these and get inspired to do something about them (might even be working, as some things on the list were in fact changed, things like Squiggoth guns (although they just bugged them up against other targets )).

Also if you want to go digging through the dps yourselves, I've compiled all weapons to their respective units here.

The different armor types are:
Infantry_Low - Grots, Servitor, Heretic, Bonesinger
Infantry_Med - guardian, cultist, scout
Infantry_High - shoota_boy, storm_boy, tankbusta, slugga_boy, banshee, dark_reaper, rangers
Infantry_Heavy_Med - nob, nob_leader, stormboy_nob_leader, warlock, warlock_seer, warp_spider, marine_tactical, assault_marine, marine_sergeant, raptor, berserker, kaskrin
Infantry_Heavy_High - terminator, assault_terminator, grav_platform, grav_platform_brightlance, obliterator, possessed_space_marine, fire_dragons
Guardsmen - A special case. Infantry_med (with base armor of 120 vs all other Inf with 100)
Vehicle_Low - chaos_rhino, rhino, land_speeder, vyper, sentinel
Vehicle_Med - chaos_defiler, choas_predator, dreadnought, hellfire_dreadnought, predator, whirlwind, fire_prism, wraithlord, looted_tank, wartrak, trukk, falcon, leman_russ
Vehicle_High - land_raider, killa_kan, baneblade
Monster_Med - horrors, ogryns
Monster_High - avatar, bloodthirster, squiggoth
Commander - farseer, force_commander, librarian, chaplain, chaos_lord, sorcerer, big mek, warboss, mad_dok, mega_armored_nobz, commisar, pysker, command_squad, priest, assassin, techpriest
Building_Low - listening posts, waagh_banners, webway_gates, generators, turrets
Building_Med - every other building
Building_High - HQ buildings

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The Berzerker ranged damage is better than guardian ranged against everything but infantry_med (guardians, cultists, scout). Don't know about you, but to me that seems a bit much for a specialized CC monster.

Waagh! Banner lvl 1 does better damage to buildings _low and _med than the lvl 2 version, which does a solid 2.5 to both types. Note to self, never upgrade banners in the enemy base.

Waagh! Banner lvl 3 does 3.9 dps to building_high Call me crazy, but that's pretty low for a twinlinked rokkit.

Ork LP lvl 3 does pretty much equal dps to vehicle_med as the lvl 2 version (11.7 to 12.7). Against all other targets though (even infanty), the LP3 does near to 100% more damage than the LP2.

The age old wisdom that slugga boyz are crappy vs buildings still holds true. If you however want to bring down buildings in a little less crappier fashion, shoot them. This is because Sluggaboyz deal better damage to buildings with their sluggas than their choppas (solid 3 vs 2.9(l) 1.5(m)1.5(h) ).

The Warboss can't touch Land Raiders, Bane Blades or HQs with his ranged weapons, as both Warboss shootas deal 3.25 dps to vehicle_high and building_high. He'll maul 'em up in melee though, as his CC dps to building_high is 27,7 and against vehicles_high it's a whopping 136!

Imperial Guardsmen, Kasrkin and their respective sergeants can't damage super units in melee (0.000 dps to vehicle and monster_high). Feels kinda right actually...

The Commissar is the only IG commander that can damage Land Raiders, Bane Blades or Killa Kans in melee.In fact, barring Commissars and Ogryns, no IG infantry or commander can deal damage to vehicle_high in melee.

The Sentinel multilaser (it's a lascannon you fools!) deals 120 dps to vehicle_low and 137 to vehicle_med. Against vehicle_high however it's only 24. The next person to tell me that Sentinels are poor AV (other than vs Kans) gets a whack. :fight:

----------------------------------------------------
Stuff by Excedrin:

Firedragons vs HQ do 3.83 DPS. Which seems kinda low, for comparison, Nob Leader shootas do 11.5, SM missile launchers do 11.3 and brightlance platforms do 37.3.

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Tactical flamers do good physical damage now, in addition to morale damage. Scout flamer physical damage values however are at best 25% of tactical flamers against infantry targets. Burnas are still pretty useless damage-wise.

ZAP! Wraithlord brightlance dps vs hard targets is MASSIVE! It does over 100 dps to building_low and vehicles _low and _med. For some reason it is considerably better against building_high than building_med though(67.5 vs 50.6 dps). I know it was good but man, that is really good!

IG Leman Russ Heavy Bolters do 0.25 dps to vehicle_high. This is somewhat compensated by 85.5 dps on it's battle cannon, but 0.25 is still a joke.

IG guardsmen armor IS bugged! Good job Excedrin finding this out! This results in various weapons being virtually useless against Imperial Guardsmen (Horrors do less than 1 dps, Kan BS does 2 dps, Prism cannon does 5 dps (lowest dps for this weapon), Sentinel does 2.8 dps, Squiggoth Big Shootas do 2.5 dps and Zzap gun does 7.5 dps, sluggas do same dmg as to Terminators (in melee) as do LLR heavy bolters, SM plasma does 14 dps (it does 18 to commanders) and Land Speeder Stormbolter does 4 dps).

IG units have a disurbing number of 0.25s for their dps. I'd list them all but I'd be here tomorrow.

There is not a single armor type against which the obliterator lascannon would be more effective than the assault cannon. Most of us probably know this, but the obliterator weapons are really wacky in how they work. Twin plasma for example is better vs buildings than the lascannon but assault cannon on the other hand is better than twin plasma against heavy_med. :werd:

Oh for the... Eldar LP3 is STILL just as sucky vs vehicles as the LP2 version. No matter that the thing has two brightlances, the dps remains the same.

IG Heavy Bolter turret does 11.1 dps to buildings_high, 49.9 dps to building_low and 22.2 dps to building_med. Explains why I got my Ork Settlement withered down by a HB turret... at a very long range.

When using IG Leman Russes in base thrashing, make sure to always have your left side to your target. This is because the right side HB on the Leman Russ does 0.498 dps to building_high, while the left sponson does 6.9 dps.

Also:

The Big Mek megablasta is still bad. On an average the dps from his slugga drop to a third when upgraded to the Mega-Blasta. Dps doesn't take into account that the Mega-Blasta is a AoE weapon, so the dps can spread over several units (in case of infantry), but against hard targets (buildings, vehicles) it never does and the MB can't be fired on the move.

Against targets other than buildings (and vehicles now in 1.41), Khorne Berserkers are better in melee than unupgraded psm.

Grots are as good as Dark Reapers at range against building_high and monster_high (0.3 dps)

Against many armor types (all bulidings, infantry_heavy_high, monster_high and all vehicles) Seer Council shuriken pistols beat Grot blastas by just 0.05 dps (0.35 vs 0.3 dps).

You should shoot at buildings_high, monster_high and vehicle_high with your Nobs because they do almost twice as much dps to these armor types with their sluggas than with their choppas. Even taking into account the Nob Leader with his Tier 2 powerclaw, you're still better off shooting (as the Nob Leader shoota is better or about as good as his powerclaw against these targets). One power claw does more damage than 6 sluggas to these though, but that's Tier 3.

Shootaboy Big Shootas are worse than their shootas against buildings _high and _med as well as both vehicles _med and _high and monster_high).

Both Warboss shootas are better vs building_low than his Power claw (89.5 and 111 vs 62.4).

Terminator Heavy Flamers do more dps to monster_med than their assault cannons. They also do at least 60% of the assault cannon dps to every other armor type, even buildings and vehicles. Note, dps, not morale dps (although I'm certain they do a lot better morale damage too) and that's not even taking into account that they are AoE weapons!

The Chaplain bolt pistol is better than his Crozius Arcanum against building_low (43.8 vs 33.1), which is incidentally also better than his plasma pistol.

The Whirlwind missile battery does 39 dps to all types of infantry (including commanders). If you factor out reload time of 5 seconds and accuracy (as it seems to hit every time even though it has accuracy of 0.7 (and due to AoE, usually does the damage anyway)) and you get something like 285 damage to a squad of 7 sluggas (or SM, or guardians, or Seer Council, or anything) per hit every 5 seconds. Oh, and they have 5000 hp and no limit other than vehicle cap.

Three Comissars in melee do 100 dps vs building_low. Add to that a Command Squad with two Priests for example (2x 27.5 + 31) and you get something like 180 dps vs building_low. That's a Ork lp down in about 6 seconds. Banners last less than 5. Also a similar command squad (Gen + 2 priests) does ~80 dps to commanders. Sure that costs quite a bit, but still, that's a lot dps. For reference, Warboss does 70 to commanders.

I'm surprised nobody has posted these yet (supposed common knowledge by now I presume):

Vindicare Assassin does more damage to buildings in melee than a Warboss. The dps are 92.8 to building_low, 44.2 to _med and 26.5 to building_high. His CC dps vs. infantry is also quite high and ranges from 58 to over 100. This guy is not only an assassin, he's also a demolition expert.

CSM do more damage to building_low in melee than Raptors (7.5 vs 7). Against other buildings, Raptors are better.

Terminator powerfists are better against some targets (all vehicles, building_high and _med), worse against others (commanders, infantry_low and _med) and pretty much equal against some. One would of course expect powerfists to be significantly better than knives against all targets, be it builder or building.

The Baneblade and the Land Raider weapons are buggered up in that the same type of weapon has different values for the same target. The Land Raider lascannons for example deal different damage to moster_med and _high as well as vehicle_high. The Baneblade is even worse, it's heavy bolter 1 does 5 and 1 dps to vehilce_low and _med while everything the other five do 12 and 6. The first 3 HBs do 1 dps to building_high while HB4-6 do 7 dps. Against most infantry types HBs 4-6 do about twice the damage compared to the first three. Oddly enough the lascannons have very different values as well. Against some targets (infantry, including horrors) lascannon 1 is far superior to the lascannon 2 while the against others the situation is completely reverse (buildings, commanders).
Maybe this is a way of randomising the damage, but I thought that was accuracys's job... :blink:


Spotted by Xerxes480bce:

"Upgraded banshees (22 dps to vehicle_light) beat Falcons with the starcannon upgrade. It only does 3.5 dps to Shees (obvious bug) heck I think they might beat unupgraded falcons as well."

The Force Commander's Hammer does more damage to commander armor(49) than it does to infantry_low (36.4). Although I believe all weapons do cusiously low damage to builders.

Relating to Xerxes480bce's finding:

Falcon starcannon sucks vs light infantry (3.5 dps to all light infantry armor types).

Tactical Sergeants get significantly worse ranged dps against everything but vehicles when upgraded to carry plasma pistols. ASM sergeants get a few worse values with the upgrade, but at least with them the change is mostly to increase the damage.

Spotted by Demon_Eyes

Oblit AC smacks down the terminator AC by a massive amount except against monster_high and vehicle_high (Oblit AC is about 2x the termie version). At this point though the only time the oblit is guaranteed to fire the AC is while moving... no knowing what it will fire when left on it's own.

The twin-linked heavy bolter on the Land Raider deals quite a bit of damage to buildings and vehicles (112 dps to all vehicles and buildings). Against building_high for example it deals more damage than the two twin-linked lascannons on the sponsons combined (112 vs 88) and against building_med it's pretty much equal to the combined lascannons. Not a huge deal, but it seems a bit odd that the HB is doing the real damage and the lascannons are just providing eyecandy.

A Land Speeder seems unable to kill IG troopers faster than the IG squad reinforces when there is a commissar and a sergeant in the squad. This is due to IG 120 amor that receives a poor 4 dps from Land Speeder sotrmbolters. For proof check out this replay (version 1.4).

Relating to Excedrin's finding on Fire Dragon guns, Fire Dragons use Dark Reaper knives and the knives are in fact better than their guns vs. infantry of all types.

I think the fact that sluggas do 3 dps to everything on ranged is worth mentioning, as that's as much as CSM bolters against buildings _med and _high and and all vehicles as well as pretty much equal to shootaboys against commanders.


1.41 UPDATE! The following issues have officially been adressed:


Berzerker melee is better against vehicle_med than tankbusta rokkits (27.1 vs 25.9). Not the case any more. Serk dmg vs vehicles was nerfed.

The Wartrak bombchucka deals a solid 45.9/36.7/53.7 dps to buildings _high/_med/_low. Add to that the fact that it's rokkits do approximately the same damage, you get combined values like 90dps to HQs, 75dps to building_med and 109dps building_low. Against vehicles _med and _low these combined do over 100 dps. Trak damage vs buildings was nerfed.

SM missile launchers do at most 5.5 dps to buildings. corrected, missiles now do better dmg vs buildings.

Force Commander Power Sword does a solid 4 (FOUR!!!) dps to everything. Not any more!

From the looks of it, the Techpriest Engineseer does not have an armor type. Nope, they are commander armor now.

The IG Vindicare Assassin seems to have infantry_high armor, 100 hp of it. Commander armor, 350 of it.

Techpriest engineseer laspistol does 17.9 dps to building_low. & The Enginseer's laspistol is also quite good against all infantry with dps ranging from 9.92 (heavy_high) to 19.8 (inf_med). Techpriest laspistol was nerfed.

IG troopers do about the same damage as sluggas boyz in melee against most targets. Against buildings however, they do about 3 times as much damage. That means about as much as Nobs ( a little more against _low, 100% more against _high and a little less against _med) and more than berserkers. Nope, no more nuclear powered bayonets. :nod:

the Power Sword upgrade that nerfs the living jeebiees out of the Force Commander also downgrades tactical sergeant dps against infantry_heavy_high. Still a bit of an downgrade, but nothing very noticable (the dps is about the same).

The minimum dps priests do to any form of infantry is 70.4, and that's against commanders (the highest is 112 against infantry_low). "Fixed". Whether you think it's good or not, Priests only do 38 dpds to commanders now, among other things.

Stuff by Excedrin:

Ogryns do 19.4 DPS to building_low and 68 DPS to building_high. Fixed. Ogryns no longer tear up HQs in seconds.

Spotted by Ozendorph
Aspiring champion plasma pistol is actualy worse against all armor types than his bolt pistol. Aspiring champion Plasma pistol was buffed.

Brand spanking new 1.41 issues! (although some are just spotted now)

Aspiring champions, both raptor and regular, do massive dps to vehicles _low and _med with their powerswords and powerfists going from 73 to as high as 153. Raptor champions also do 30 dps to commanders as well as 60 to building_low and all infantry except guardsmen. Yes, Relic really has the subtle touch when it comes to fixing things.

IG Assassin Exitus rifle does 91.4 dps to commanders. That is, 800 damage per hit. :sniper:

OK, ladies and gentlemen, we now have a new powersword upgrade! The powerfist upgrade makes all aspiring champions as well as ASM sergeants much worse in CC. Tac squad sergeants get a itty bitty bonus (~1dps) against targets other than vehicles, against which they get a huge nerf in dps. Relic, look at this emoticon. :naughty:

Powersword upgrade still makes FC worse against commanders (but nothing like 4dps anymore, 44.4 from 49).

Kasrkin Hellguns do 12 dps to building_low. That's without any bonuses and it's more than their plasma or GLs. That's more than Tankbustas you know..

Kasrkin knives also do 13 dps to building_low. For reference, Nobs do 9 dps.

Dark Reapers can fire on the move. Their base accuracy is 0.6 and the on the move penalty is 0.2, which leaves them at 0.4 accuracy on the move. For reference, SM tacticals have 0.3 accuracy while on the move.

There's already an entire thread on this, but Guardsmen plasma are the only IG weapons that have an accuracy penalty penalties for being on the move (besides setup weapons of course). This means that you can run around as much as you want and deal the exact same damage you'd be doing if standing still.

PSM melee and Nob Squad power claws do the same dps to building_low.

As of 1.41, Nob Leader shoota has the dps against all buildings of two Tankbusta rokkits. This means that the Nobs leader shoota is a very good gun as well as that the Tankbusta rokkits aren't that good at damaging buildings.

Spotted by Stim:

While SM now beat Guardsmen (and other infantry_med even better) in melee now (inf_med 13.2 and guardsmen 9.45 dps), CSM unfortunately have no such luck as their dps against these armor types is significantly worse (9.27 and 5.52). Attention to detail.. :worm:

The Basilisk Heavy Bolter is almost 2x as good against building_low than the regular Earthshaker cannon (not the Earthshaker round for 200/200 mind you).

More issues:

Banshees do nasty damage to buildings and vehicles. Without Call of War upgrade they do slightly worse than unupgraded Nobs (~1 dps less) but seeing how CoW doubles the damage they do, they really take down buildings (17.06 to _low, 10.14 to _med) and vehicles (22 to _low, 12.52 to _med) a bit too well.

Squiggoth Big Shootas are still bugged vs all heavy infantry, monster_high, and guardsmen. New to 1.41 the right Big Shoota is equally bugged vs monster_med. Seeing how Big Shootas were given AP values against building_low in 1.41, one would have hoped that these would have been fixed as well... :Puppy:

The commander plasma pistols seem to be overbuffed a little. The Chaos Lord plasma pistol for example is more effective vs building_low with the plasma pistol than with the manreaper and against commanders the damage is about equal (53 vs 47). The Chaos Sorceror plasma is 100% better against commanders than his bedlam staff (32 vs 16) and the Librarian plasma beats his force weapon in several areas. :hover:

Relating to the plasma pistol issue, Chaos Lord plasma pistol deals 73.2 dps to building_low. That's the equal of roughly 6 tankbusta rokkits.

Killa Kan does 87.8 dps to building_high and 48.8 dps to building_med. For reference a Wraithlord does 60.9 dps to building_med.

The Looted tank Battle Cannon does 28 dps to building_high and 14 to _med and _low and it does 40 damage per hit (not dps) to Guarsmen.

Kind of old news, but a Squiggoth on ranged stance with all guns (2 big shootas and a Zzap gun) firing will deal a whopping 12,5 dps to a IG guardsmen squad. For reference, it deals 111 dps to commanders at ranged. I know I seem to have a particular grudge with the Squiggoth guns but come on, it's a friggin Squiggoth and it can't scratch freaking IG flak jackets!! :madashel:

A Defiler does 141 dps to building_high. The Avatar of Khaine does 108, Wraithlord 103, Killa Kan 87.8 and a Dreadnough does either 52.7 or double that depending on whether it uses two fists when fighting (I personally think it uses only one).

Spotted by Psychodil:

Guard plasma does 20 DPS to building low. It does more DPS to all building types than tankbustas rockets.

Sluggas do less melee damage than marines or even shoota boys. 4.5 DPS to guardsmen in melee for example and 2.97 to monster_med!

Big shootas do 10 DPS to guardsmen bugged armour for 40/30. There's also the issue of the Big Shootas doing worse damage to building_high and _med than regular shootas.

Big shootas do less damage to inf_medium and inf_high than SM missile launchers (14.2 to high and 15.8 to med vs 23.7 and 19.2. Now which was the AV weapon and which was Anti-infantry? :notadd:

Inspired by Psychodil:
TBs, Horrors and FDs are all pretty much equally bad vs buillding_high (from 3.82 to 4.77 dps), but SM missile launchers for some reason do 11.6 dps to HQs (more than 100% better dps).

Spotted by Da_Fish:

Seer Council Witchblades do 45.8 DPS vs building_low, 20.4 DPS to building_high and 19.6 DPS to building_med. Sure a Seer Council member costs 80/50 and has only 400 hp, but those dps values are higher than MANs'.

More thingies:

Basilisk artillery does more damage to infantry_heavy_high than infantry_heavy_med.

Chaos Lord, Force Commander and Librarian Plasma Pistols do more damage to infantry_heavy_high than infantry_heavy_med. Hellfire missiles also do almost 50% more dps.

UPDATE ON 13.5.06:

The IG Techpriest is immune to morale due to it missing some bits of code in the squad lua, check this thread for details.

The Psyker arc lightning spell has an armor piercing value of 150 against infantry_heavy_high.

The farseer spell "Guide" has a numbers value that actually makes it add 3000% to accuracy (instead of 30%), effectively giving the unit it is cast on full accuracy for the duration of the spell (even with FoF on and on the move). Check this thread for more info.

There's a modifier cap that prevents any single max or min damage modifier from going over 1.5 (= 50%). Affects things such as CoW, Targeters, Execute etc.

There are some.. ahem.. interesting armor penetration values in the game, such as Prism cannon against vehicle_med (300) and vehicle_low (160), Leman Russ Battlecannon against vehicle_low (150) and vehicle_med (140). These result in scewed dps unless taken into account and just plain make no sense what so ever.

n0z3k1ll3r

Did Excedrin take minimum damage values into account? That guardsmen vs uber unit one seems particularly suspect.

Slow_Runner

Not sure, but I had a priest whacking at a Killa Kan and it did zero damage the entire time.

n0z3k1ll3r

Kill animation? Or maybe he just kept missing, unlikely but possible.

Grabnutz

another good thread slow, consider it linkified in the stificated thread of mine.

Slow_Runner

Did a full lab, Priests can't damage Kans.

Excedrin

You missed Ogryn vs HQ. They're the best unit for HQ killing for cost. One squad of them in a Chimera results in no HQ in 10 seconds or so. It looks like building_low and building_high piercing are swapped. They do 19.4 DPS to low and 68 DPS to high. It's around 560 DPS for a squad without including whatever the bone'ead's bonus is or an attached priest and his bonus.

Also, Firedragons vs HQ do 3.83 DPS. Which seems kinda low, for comparison, tankbustas do 8.9 and horrors do 4.77. Even SM missile launchers do 4.25. A brightlance platform does 37.3.

For additional contrast, a Killa Kan's melee does 87.8.

Hopefully those numbers show how insanely good Ogryns are at killing HQs.

To answer n0z3k1ll3r, yes, many of the guard weapons have 0 min_damage_value, it's possible that I got the wrong value, but the things I've tested (Priest vs vehicle_high) have shown that it's correct.

Legionnaire

Well thats good to know... won t be lettin any chimeras near my base from now on! Damn 68 DPS ? I would have to see it to believe it *hopes he never sees it*

Slow_Runner

I missed a gazillion things, hence the thread. I really, really don't have the time to find all the oddities. Adding your findings now.

Legionnaire

All very informative, thx slow, got numbers for us SM players? Like ASM's CC and Melta bombs and lascannons compared to autocannons/heavy bolters for preds?

Slow_Runner

If you need dps on Assault Marine CC, go to http://dow.lerp.com/wadps.html and look up "space marine chainsword assault". And I was under the impression that preds don't have autocannons or HBs anymore... Melta Bombs arent' a weapon, but an ability, so it's not included in Excedrin's wonderful dps site.

RZetlin

Then how does this explain the imummity that Killa Kans have with the Sentinels' weapons?

Killa Kans immune to Sentinel's guns?

Legionnaire

Cool link. A little hard to use. So we i guess melta bombs do set dmg no matter what they hit? That would pretty sweet

rigolgm

Rzetlin - it explains it because the Sentinel laser does over 100damge/shot to other vehicle armour ypes but only 24 to vehicle_high. As has been clarified on other threads here, Killa Kans get relatively low health but vehicle_high armour, which makes them a bit more resistant to a lot of 'vehicle busting' stuff (especially the Sentinel laser!) but more vulnerable than dreds etc to more regular attacks.

[eX]Xerxes

If anybody wants a good laugh look at the rap pistol and defiler numbers... I'd come up with absurd comparisions, but I'd be here all day :P

Slow_Runner

Well yes, Defiler AC dps is off the charts, but that's common knowledge already.

Raptor pistols do over 4 dps to everything. It's a lot for a good melee jump troop, but it's a little more subtle than the Defiler AC OMGWTFPWNALL dps! It's better than CSM vs some targets (commanders, vehicles) but worse against others (all infantry).

[eX]Xerxes

Upgraded banshees (22 dps to vehicle_light) beat Falcons with the starcannon upgrade. It only does 3.5 dps to Shees (obvious bug) heck I think they might beat unupgraded falcons as well.

Legionnaire

i don t see defilers as a huge problem. Maybe they were suppose to be like that. Usually 2 missile squads kill em really really quick. Also his size sure makes him hard to maneuvre.

rigolgm

Anyone notice that SM tank twin lascannons do more damage when fired from the right sponson than from the left sponson, against monstors etc? Odd!

Gnug315

Things that make you go hmm..

Slow_Runner

Just added a few tidbits like:

There is not a single armor type against which the obliterator lascannon would be more effective than the assault cannon. Most of us probably know this, but the obliterator weapons are really wacky in how they work. Twin plasma for example is better vs buildings than the lascannon but assault cannon on the other hand is better than twin plasma against heavy_med. :werd:

Demonic projectiles doesn't improve the the Predator heavy bolters against infantyr at all. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a little strange.

If I'm reading things right, upgrading the Banshee exarch makes it worse against infantry_med (it drops from 41 to 34). Not that they'll be fighting scouts, cultists or guardians that much after the upgrade, but it's still a bit inconsistent.

EDIT:
Prism Cannon does 248 dps to vehicle med. Take care now, bye bye then.
EDIT2: Actually the prism cannon only does 82.5 dps against vehicles _med and _low, the dps is shown incorrectly because the weapon has silly armor penetrating numbers (300 and 160).

Oh for the... Eldar LP3 is STILL just as sucky vs vehicles as the LP2 version. No matter that the thing has two brightlances, the dps remains the same.

Techpriest engineseer does 17.9 dps to building_low with his laspistol. ...what was that now?

Both Guardsmen and Kasrkin sergeant knives do 0 dps to building, monster and vehicle_high.

Spotted by Ozendorph
Aspiring champion plasma pistol is actualy worse against all armor types than his bolt pistol. The Raptor Champion at least gets better against some armor types, but with the regular champion every single dps value gets worse.

n0z3k1ll3r

Not really, they're intended to make the Pred a soft counter to Vehicles without losing any anti infantry DPS. It doesn't get stronger vs infantry, but nor does it get weaker.

Holy Yikees. Considering that about 6 seconds worth of that is dealt per shot... eep.

Wouldn't that mean orks were immune to Guards in melee?

Slow_Runner

Oh, right, my bad. I meant to say vehicle, building and monster_high. Correcting now.
Technically that would mean the Orks were immune to guard sergeants, but still, my bad.

EDIT: Adding other oddities:

There is not a single IG commander that can damage Land Raiders, Bane Blades or Killa Kans in melee.EDIT: except Commissars.

IG Heavy Bolter turret does 11.1 dps to buildings_high, 49.9 dps to building_low and 22.2 dps to building_med. Explains why I got my Ork Settlement withered down by a HB turret... at a very long range.

When using IG Leman Russes in base thrashing, make sure to always have your left side to your target. This is because the right side HB on the Leman Russ does 0.498 dps to building_high, while the left sponson does 6.9 dps.

n0z3k1ll3r

That's a bit Sinister.

Sorry couldn't resist.

rigolgm

"Quote:
Both Guardsmen and Kasrkin sergeant knives do 0 dps to any armor type that with _high.
Wouldn't that mean orks were immune to Guards in melee?"

Nosekiller - no it doesn't! That 0 dps only applies to the sergeants for a start. Plus, not all orks have high armour - just nobz and stormboyz I believe (and only stormboyz since DoW got its 1.4 patch).

Slow_Runner

Relating to Ozendorph's discovery on Aspiring champion plasma pistol upgrade:

Tactical Sergeants get significantly worse ranged dps against everything but vehicles when upgraded to carry plasma pistols. ASM sergeants get a few worse values with the upgrade, but at least with them the change is mostly to increase the damage.

Also:

Unless the dps are inaccurate, Squiggoth twin-linked Big Shootas do 2.5 dps to both types of inf_heavy as well as monster_high and buildings _low and _high. Thank Gork for the Zzap gun eh.

The Big Mek megablasta is still bad. On an average the dps from his slugga drop to a third when upgraded to the Mega-Blasta. Dps doesn't take into account that the Mega-Blasta is a AoE weapon, so the dps can spread over several units (in case of infantry), but against hard targets (buildings, vehicles) it never does and the MB can't be fired on the move.

Against targets other than buildings, Khorne Berserkers are better in melee than unupgraded psm.

Against building_low and inf_heavy_high, grots beat banshees (and their exarchs) at ranged.

Grots are as good as Dark Reapers at range against building_high and monster_high (0.3 dps)

Against many armor types (all bulidings, heavy_high, monster_high and all vehicles) Seer Council shuriken pistols beat Grot blastas by just 0.05 dps (0.35 vs 0.3 dps).

Falcon starcannon sucks vs light infantry (3.5 dps to all light infantry armor types).

Gnug315

Good stuff, keep em coming

Slow_Runner

You should shoot at buildings_high, monster_high and vehicle_high with your Nobs because they do almost twice as much dps to these armor types with their sluggas than with their choppas. Even taking into account the Nob Leader with his Tier 2 powerclaw, you're still better off shooting (as the Nob Leader shoota is better or about as good as his powerclaw against these targets). One power claw does more damage than 6 sluggas to these though, but that's Tier 3.

Shootaboy Big Shootas are worse than their shootas against buildings _high and _med as well as both vehicles _med and _high and monster_high).

Both Warboss shootas are better vs building_low than his Power claw (89.5 and 111 vs 62.4).

Terminator Heavy Flamers do more dps to monster_med than their assault cannons. They also do at least 60% of the assault cannon dps to every other armor type, even buildings and vehicles. Note, dps, not morale dps (although I'm certain they do a lot better morale damage too) and that's not even taking into account that they are AoE weapons!

The Chaplain bolt pistol is better than his Crozius Arcanum against building_low (43.8 vs 33.1).

It would seem that upgrading the Dreadnough to a ranged weapon no longer reduces his melee damage.

The Whirlwind missile battery does 39 dps to all types of infantry (including commanders). Take into account it's reload time of 5 seconds and the fact that it is an AoE weapon with 100% accuracy and you get something like 200 damage to a squad of 7 sluggas (or SM, or guardians, or Seer Council, or anything) every 5 seconds. Oh, and they have 5000 hp and no limit too.

EDIT:
Three Comissars in melee do 100 dps vs building_low. Add to that a Command Squad with two Priests for example (2x 27.5 + 31) and you get something like 180 dps vs building_low. That's a Ork lp down in about 6 seconds. Banners last less than 5. Also a similar command squad (Gen + 2 priests) does ~80 dps to commanders. Sure that costs quite a bit, but still, that's a lot dps. For reference, Warboss does 70 to commanders.

Slow_Runner

I'm surprised nobody has posted these yet (supposed common knowledge by now I presume):

The IG Vindicare Assassin seems to have infantry_high armor, 100 hp of it. The same armor as slugga boyz.

Vindicare Assassin does more damage to buildings in melee than a Warboss. The dps are 92.8 to building_low, 44.2 to _med and 26.5 to building_high. His CC dps vs. infantry is also quite high and ranges from 58 to over 100. This guy is not only an assassin, he's also a demolition expert.

IG troopers do about the same damage as sluggas boyz in melee against most targets. Against buildings however, they do about 3 times as much damage. That means about as much as Nobs ( a little more against _low, 100% more against _high and a little less against _med) and more than berserkers. And that's not counting in the possible bonuses from sergeants, Commissars etc. Compared to their lasguns, the damage is 6 times as much against building_low (9.17 dps). Multiply that by 10 or 20... :loco:

Demon_Eyes

Posted this somewhere else as well:
chaos assault cannon 21.1 53.9 60.4 53.3 61 35.7 8.31 64 7.84 18.8 25.1 18.3 41.2 15.4
space marine assault cannon terminator 10.6 27.2 33.4 32.4 43.2 27.2 9.75 32.4 9.75 10 12.7 12.4 23.2 9.88

Oblit AC smacks down the terminator AC by a massive amount except against monster_high and vehicle_high. At this point though the only time the oblit is guaranteed to fire the AC is while moving... no knowing what it will fire when left on it's own.

Da_Fish

And I was upgrading to plasma pistols for my CSM squads with AC's in Tier 1! Well thanks! That's 60/35 that can be better spent elsewhere now!

Alcorr

I dont know if someone has already replied to this strange finding yet or not but in the first post it is mentioned that SM missiles do less damage than heavy bolters against buildings.

For some odd reason relic decided to make missiles only anti vehicle and heavy bolters anti building AND anti infantry.

Although fluffwise it makes no sense whatsoever, in game terms there is a good reason for it:

SM are the most flexible race and in vanilla dow you could mass SM squads (and csm squads) and not have to even worry about getting your own vehicles tier 2 because since you have a mass of marines in late tier 1 and early tier 2 you are set anti infantry wise.

If you see some vehicles or if you are in your opponent's base just upgrade some missile launchers on the fly and viola, instant anti tank and anti vehicle!

Since relic lowered the flexibility of csm by taking away thier upgrades except for heavy bolters, it is my theory that they wanted to SLIGHTLY lower the flexibility of SM and prevent SM from transitioning so easily from tiers 1-2 without having to make any new buildings or researches and pour all the req and power instantly into your current army.

In 1.4 in early tier 2 if you had already beat your opponent in the field then you could get 4 missile launchers per squad and so all your req goes into your army isntantly instead of having to be spent on buildings first. Then its just a walk into the opponents base and everything goes up in flames.

Heavy bolters were made anti building and missile launchers changed to anti tank so that one upgrade couldn't serve two purposes as no other race in the game has one infantry unit that is so flexible....other than zerks

I also believe that this was a push by relic to make tier 2 more impacting so that if an opponent gets a vehicle that it is not so easily countered AND the base is razed with the same counter...

I am not saying I agree with it since a missle laucher in real life would pulverize a building, but there is good logic behind it...

Sorry for the long post didn't meant to type so much...

EDIT: I don't mind raptor pistols doing 4 dps to everything as it compensates for thier loss of melee dmg vs. building low that they used to have....

Da_Fish

And would you believe that some are calling for nerfs to both raptor chainsword and raptor bolt pistol?

Alcorr

Is that sarcasm?

Da_Fish

No, no it isn't.

Alcorr

Ok good because as it is now raptors aren't THAT much more better vs. buildings and commanders with thier pistols than with thier chainswords. Personally if you left the damage where it was I wouldn't mind. The chainsword dmg vs. building low should be raised in my opinion.

As it is now for a harrasing unit their only advantage is that they come out early and have a supreme reign on the battlefield for all of maybe 4 minutes until the enemy can actually amass an army and then the raptor cost of 70 req comes as a disadvantage for them.

Cost for cost and without skill as a factor chaos raptors become obselete after 4-6 mintues into the game and/at the same time tier 2. You can still use them to win I have seem raptor masses obliterate enemy armies its just that normally skill and req comes into the picture then...

If they had back their chainsword dmg vs. building_low then they might be used to harrass in later stages into the game...I don't remember exactly what it was but I think it was higher than it is now...

Slow_Runner

SM missile bad building damage values: mentioned.
HB building damage: mentioned.
Raptor pisto damage: mentioned.
Raptor cc damage that is quite average in every respect: not mentioned, until now.

Although, on Raptor building_low damage: CSM do more damage to building_low in melee than Raptors (7.5 vs 7). Against other buildings, Raptors are better.

The much discussed Raptor ranged damage to commanders is 0.4 more than CSM. Raptors have 25 more hp than CSM and a squad of Raptors is 240 while CSM squad costs 190.

Those are just some facts. Please don't continue a Raptor balance discussion here.

Da_Fish

TBH, that has been there since 1.3 IIRC. This isn't a new WA thing.

Alcorr

Right and they should have thier 1.2 values back IMO.



Not trying to, just stating some things that to me don't make sense, as is the point of the thread. Now maybe to some people having raptors do less dmg in melee than csm vs. building low isn't an odd damage value but it is to me.

[eX]Xerxes

The Force Commander's Hammer does more damage to commander armor(49) than it does to infantry_low (36.4).

Slow_Runner

@Alcorr: Sure enough, you did bring up some odd damage values, but your third post started to sound awfully like a Raptor balance discussion. One of the reasons for this thread is to be of use to the balance team by providing them with odd values that affect game balance. Going into detail about costs, harassin ability etc. of a certain unit however belongs to the thread discussing that particular unit. This thread just points out values that should appear odd on their own, not even taking much into account their context, cost or other abilities, values that are plain odd.

Also many of the damage values aren't anything new to WA (such as Eldar LP3s or Squiggoth big shootas), they just haven't been fixed in any previous patches and hence are an issue still in WA.

Slow_Runner

Not really a plain numbers issue, but:

A Land Speeder seems unable to kill IG troopers faster than the IG squad reinforces when there is a commissar and a sergeant in the squad. For proof check out this replay.

Question

Add the one about termie powerfists doing less damage than tac knifes.

It would seem that upgrading the Dreadnough to a ranged weapon no longer reduces his melee damage.Please confirm.The last time i asked this question many people insisted it still did.

Slow_Runner

The dps values say that it no longer cuts the melee damage in half. I've yet to test this in-game, but I assume that the dps are correct on that one. If anyone wishes to lab that, I'd appreciate it, but until then I can only confirm what Excedrin's dps tell me.

Terminator powerfists are better against some targets (all vehicles, building_high and _med), worse against others (commanders, infantry_low and _med) and pretty much equal against some. One would of course expect powerfists to be significantly better than knives against all targets, be it builder or building.

Added to the list.

Wolflord_Bane

This is a great thread slow. you the :king:

I think with these numbers and the inputs from everyone else the pattern shows errors all over the place from relic.

assuming (which you know what assuming does) that these are "bugs"

then simply fixing the dps numbers to the "correct" (correct= what was originally intended before this rushed product was put out) ones will solve LOTS of balance issues debated in other threads.

wish they would simply do that....

Legionnaire

I am lookin at excedrins chart and i happen to notice that tank twin linked lascannon left does like half dmg vs vehicle_high and monster_med then the RIGHT pair of lascannons???

I am assuming this is the land raider and if so why would one side be stronger than the other?

Drasius

yeah, it is the LR, and there is no real reason except that there are an awful lot of units like this with identical weapons with damage discrepancies, the worst of which is the baneblade.

Slow_Runner

I'm glad someone's finding this of some entertainment values.

The Baneblade and the Land Raider weapons are buggered up in that the same type of weapon has different values for the same target. The Land Raider lascannons for example deal different damage to moster_med and _high as well as vehicle_high. The Baneblade is even worse, it's heavy bolter 1 does 5 and 1 dps to vehilce_low and _med while everything the other five do 12 and 6. The first 3 HBs do 1 dps to building_high while HB4-6 do 7 dps. Against most infantry types HBs 4-6 do about twice the damage compared to the first three. Oddly enough the lascannons have very different values as well. Against some targets (infantry, including horrors) lascannon 1 is far superior to the lascannon 2 while the against others the situation is completely reverse (buildings, commanders).
Maybe this is a way of randomising the damage, but I thought that was accuracys's job... :loco:

EDIT: Just noticed that the Power Sword upgrade that nerfs the living jeebiees out of the Force Commander also downgrades sergeant dps against infantry_heavy_high. Even the powerfist upgrade only brings the damage values back to chainsword's level.

Wolflord_Bane

Thanks to this post, my frustration level has decreased dramatically as I understand why my units do not perform as expected (and the guardsman murdering my blds in hth!)

The best change is NEVER upgrading to power sword in my SM armory. That way FC can at least fight a little.