Tranj

OK, so we are going to try something new for us. Here is a sneak peek at the 1.5 change log. This is preliminary, pre-beta, not complete, not final. These are the current balance changes we are looking at. There are several bug fixes that are not in this list! We'll post the bug fixes once we have them fully verified from QA. FEEL FREE TO COMMENT, BUT BE NICE!

Enjoy!

Log is long, going in next post....

Dawn of War: 1.5 Pending Change List:



THESE CHANGES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE!!!!



General Changes

• Hotkey for Grenade Launchers changed from "G" to "L" to avoid conflict with the Attack Ground hotkey
• Tier One Buff
  • Increased hit points and attack of all tier one units by 25%.
  • Upgrades now give less bonus to tier one units
  • Turrets are 25% cheaper

Space Marines

• Reduced the larger healing aura of the Chaplain and Apothecary from 4 to 2.
• Land Speeder
  • Reduced the cost of the Land Speeder (150 Requisition / 130 Power / 2 Population) to (100 Requisition / 80 Power / 1 Population)
  • Land Speeder Assault Cannon Weapon:
    • Increased damage against Infantry Medium from 36.3 to 40%
    • Increased damage against Infantry Heavy Medium from 19.6 to 25%
    • Infantry high from 25 to 30%
    • Infantry Heavy High from 9.6% to 25%
• Scouts
  
  • Decreased Scout Hit Points from 250 to 230
  • Decreased reload time of Sniper Rifle from 12 seconds to 9 seconds
  • Increased damage of Sniper Rifle against
    • Infantry Heavy High targets from 50% to 75%
    • Monster Medium from 60% to 75%
• Tactical Space Marines
  
  • Increased Space Marine Hit Points from 300 to 325
  • Increased Missile Launcher damage against Vehicle Medium targets from 38% to 50%
• Reduced effectiveness of Melta Bombs against Building High targets from 75% to 50%
• Increased the cost of the Whirlwind from (145 Requisition / 260 Power) to (190 Requisition / 300 Power)
• Reduced the frequency of the stun effect on the Assault Terminator Thunder Hammer
• Reduced the reload time of the Assault Sergeant and Sergeant Power Fist from 2 seconds to 1 second.
• Reduced the damage the Sergeant Power Sword does to Vehicle armor
• Assault Marines
  
  • Reduced the health of Assault Marines from 400 to 375
  • Reduced the damage Assault Marines do to Vehicle and Building armor
• Reduced the amount of damage Hellfire Dreadnoughts do to Vehicle Low armor
• Enemy players can no longer see the Orbital Bombardment targeting cursor
• Orbital Bombardment does less damage to HQs
• Sergeant Power Sword damage vs. buildings and vehicles reduced
• Reduced Whirlwind hit points from 5,000 to 2,500.

Chaos:

• Raptors now have the Flame Thrower heavy weapon upgrade. This flame thrower is considerably more powerful than the flame thrower in Dawn of War.
• Chaos Heavy Weapons research has been restored. This ability now:
  • Increases the number of Heavy Bolters a Chaos Marine squad can equip from 2 to 4
  • Increases the number of heavy weapons a Cultist squad can equip from 3 to 5
  • Increases the number of flamers that a Raptor squad can equip from 2 to 4
• Chaos has a new research known as Purge the Weak. This research:
  
  • Doubles the health of Aspiring Champions and Raptor Champions
  • Changes the armor type of Champions from Heavy Medium to Heavy High
  • Bestows the Fear Aura ability on Champions
• Aspiring Champions now have a new ability known as Fear Aura. This ability:
  
  • Increases the health of all members by 100 hit points
• Aspiring Champions and Raptor Champions now only increase squad cap by 1 (down from 2)
• Made the following changes to Furious Charge research:
  
  • Increased Chaos Marine and Cultist melee damage bonus from 15% to 25%.
  • Implemented movement speed bonus of 20% for Cultists, Chaos Marines, Raptors and all Champions.
  • Furious Charge moved to Tier 2.
• Increased population cost of Khorne Berserkers from 2 to 4
• Aspiring Champion
  
  • Increased cost of the Aspiring Champion from (55 req / 0 power) to (65 req / 0 power)
  • Increased the build time from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
• Increased the cost of Chaos Plasma Pistol research from (50 Requisition / 20 Power) to (50 Requisition / 30 Power)
• Reduced the damage the Chaos Sorcerer Plasma Pistol does to Building Low by 50%
• Reduce the chaos Sorcerer's melee damage to building low by 20%
• Reduced the damage the Chaos Lord Plasma Pistol does to:
  
  • Vehicle Low by 35%
  • Monster Medium by 35%
  • Building Low by 50%
• Adjusted the damage on the Aspiring Champion Plasma Pistol as follows:
  
  • Increased the damage to Heavy High to be in line with other plasma weapons
  • Reduced the damage to Monster Medium by 35%
  • Reduced the damage to Building Low by 50%
• Increased the amount of damage that Chaos Horrors do to the following armor types:
  
  • Increased the damage to Building Medium by 20%
  • Increased the damage to Building Low by 50%
• Raptor jumps now cost 2/3 of their maximum charge (rather than 1/2)
• Added a movement penalty to the Obliterator's assault cannon
• Increased the cost of the Chaos Sorcerer to 150 requisition 75 power
• Increased the cost of the Chaos Sorcerer to 40 seconds (up from 20)
• Increased the hitpoints of the Chaos Sorcerer to 1000 (up from 800)
• Corruption now does a minimum of 5 damage every second
• Removed the damage penalty from Daemon Strength
• Reduced the reload time of the Aspiring Champion and Raptor Champion Power Fist to 1 second (down from 2)
• Increased cost of Furious Charge from (50 req / 25 power) to (50 req / 60 power)

Orks

• Stormboys
  • Reduced the population requirement for Stormboyz from 40 to 30
  • Reduced the amount of damage Stormboyz do to Vehicle Low
  • Reduce Stormboy melee damage vs. building low by 10%
  • Speed Boost now a research at the boyz hut for 50/50 30 seconds, requiring Pile O' Gunz and 30 pop.
  • Stormboyz can once again use stikkbombs
• Slugga Boy
  
  • Reduced the build time of the Slugga Boy from 5 seconds to 4, reinforce time remains the same
• Dramatically reduced the amount of damage the Mega Armored Nob Power Claw does to Vehicle High armor
• Increased the damage of the Mek Boy's Mega Blaster
• Mega-Armored Nobz and the Mek Boy should not break morale so easily now
• Increased the accuracy of the Killa Kanz' big shoota
• Increased the Zzap Gun's damage against most armor types
• Decreased the damage of the Squiggoth's big shootas against vehicle and building armor
• Tankbusta
  
  • Tankbusta damage against Vehicle Low and Vehicle Medium increased by 15%
  • Tankbusta cost reduced to 50 requisition 10 power
  • Tankbusta hit points increased to 500
  • Tankbustaz now come with a minimum squad number of 3 and a maximum squad number of 5
• Shoota boyz build time increased from 5.5 seconds to 6.5 seconds

Eldar

• Made the following changes to Rangers:
  • Rangers now have a squad cap limit of 1
  • Rangers now start with 5 squad members
  • Ranger build cost and reinforce cost has been reduced to 40 Requisition
  • Ranger Long Rifle now scales more dramatically with upgrades
• Banshee Morale Armor reduced to be in line with other units
• The Vyper Missile Launcher now has a knockdown effect that can be used to disrupt enemy infantry
• The Missile launcher is now the Vyper's default weapon.
• Reapers
  
  • Accuracy penalty while moving increased
  • Reduced hit points from 400 to 360
• Increased the accuracy of the Eldar LP 2 Brightlance from 0.7 to 1.0
• The Falcon Grav Tank Starcannon now does more damage to light infantry
• Fire Prism support cap increased from 3 to 4
• Reduced Psychic Storm damage to:
  
  • Infantry Medium: 90 to 75
  • Commander: 100 to 80
• Reduced Wraithlord Brightlance damage by 25% against vehicles and buildings.

Imperial Guard

• Guardsmen
  • Reduced armor from 120 to 100
  • Increased hit points to compensate for armor reduction
  • Increased build time from 4 seconds to 5 seconds
  • Added a 1 second setup time to the Guardsmen Grenade Launcher
  • Added a 20% Accuracy Penalty while moving to the Guardsmen Lasgun
  • Decreased Plasma Gun damage versus Building Low targets from 35 to 25
• Increased build time of Infantry Command structure from 30 seconds to 36 seconds
• Uncommon Valor research now adds 100 hitpoints to each member of the Command Squad
• Psyker's now have a new ability known as Curse of the Machine Spirits. This ability:
  
  • Changes the target vehicle's armor from vehicle armor to infantry armor for the duration of the ability
  • Shuts off the vehicle's weapons for the duration of the ability

• Increased the hit points of the Psyker from 200 to 300
• Increased the hit points of the Command Squad Psyker from 100 to 200
• Reduced the cost of the Telepathica Temple from (100 Requisition / 30 Power) to (75 Requisition / 20 Power)
• Reduced the build time of the Vindicare Temple addon from 20 seconds to 15 seconds
• Commissar now adds 200 morale to a squad rather than making a squad immune to morale damage
• Reduced the frequency of the Priest's synch kills
• Increased the damage of the Assassin's Exitus Rifle
• Increased the cost of Weapon Specialization to 100 requisition 100 power, and increased the research time to 45 seconds (up from 30).
• Gave the following weapons a minimum damage of 1:
  • Priest Chainsword
  • Priest Eviscerator
  • Assassin Exitus Pistol
  • Guardsmen and Kasrkin Knife
  • Enginseer Axe
  • Imperial General Power Gauntlet
  • Psyker Spike
• Weapon Specialization now effects the Kasrkin Grenade Launcher and the Kasrkin Plasma Gun
• Fixed a bug that would cause the hellhound to do perpetual damage to units even when no longer attacking that unit
• Basilisk
  
  • Fixed a bug that was causing the Basilisk not to fire at units within its maximum range
  • Increased Basilisk reload time from 4 to 6 seconds.

Weavern

This thread is going to be heavily moderated. Keep this in mind to those of you who are immediatly going to be making any comments on this post. Also do not be making hundreds of spinoff threads about these changes.

Do note that this is prebeta so for any naysayers or people that are going to be exceptionally negative you have been warned upon reading this post.

Inq

OMG

interesting. I do like the buffs chaos have recieved, raptors especially. Eldar changes seem good also.

wnmnkh

One very quick thing.
"Reduced the larger healing aura of the Chaplain and Apothecary from 4 to 2."

....hmmm stacked healing? The area of aura is not a problem, stacked healing auras are.

White_Pointer

I don't quite understand this statement...exactly what are you talking about with Slugga Boy build times here?

And still no tankbusta bombs or super stikk bomb? It also doesn't appear as if Ork tier 3 and 4 is changing much if at all, and that's where their biggest problems are...

White_Pointer

I-Guard

^^ Well first keep in mind this is the beta. Its no where near completion. So do not be discouraged yet.

As for the build time. Its saying if you build a fresh new unit of Slugga Boyz its 4 seconds. But the reinforcement of them is the same.

So faster new unit build time, but the same reinforcement as before.

Weavern

The slugga build time suggests that for slugga from the HQ or boys hut their time has decreased 1 second per slugga, so in essence it has decreased from 20 to 16.

noise_pollution

Most changes seem to be for the better...
Landspeeder may be too good now....

About the spam and obsolete units issue... that probably fixes tier1 units being obsolete in tier2, but tier1 and 2 units will still become obsolete in tier 3 and 4... Any chance of that being fixed?

Lots of good ideas though... and the new abilities are really welcome

Dys

Bravo for actually posting this relic/THQ staff

FlashlightIG

Movement penalty to Obliterators assault cannon, and you haven't fixed their targetting problems? The only way to make good use of Obliterators is to dance them so they use their assault cannons. Now you nerfed it so they can't stand and fire with guarantee of assault cannon, or dance because of accuracy penalty. Don't forget oblits get raped because while they are dancing you can't target anything.

nude-fox

hmm i still cant see chaos tacs being usefull or used over raptors

personally i'd really really like them to have plasma guns back they just dont seem that usefull outside of T1 really in the same way that marine tacs are and quite frankly the heavy bolter setup time dosent work well with the raptors mobilness

and chaos get a nerf to zerks they now cost 4 cap but when most people research they already have some units so if someone wants a zerk squad there is a chance they'll have to wait for long research or get some other squad killed and personally i'd rather have 2 squads of raps with the new buffed aspiring champion then 1 squad of zerks taht only has 8 people no upgrades and no aspiring champion
the sorc also gets a nerf which is probly needed but chaos gets nothing to compensate in teir 2 besides a buff to horros but u still cant reinforce them back up to 5 which makes me sad and i'm assuming fear auroa and furius charge

it also seems that chaos now takes alot of upgrades to get a good army together and thats alot of stuff to clog up the armory

Whodunnit

yay, early stormboys and flamers for raptors!!!!

i'm also looking forward to seeing landspeeders.

davisbe

If this makes it into the final, I will be an extremely happy camper. I hardly use SP's now, but this is not only another power, but anti-vehicle for the infantry in place of missile launchers. This is what I hoped for when I first saw Tranj's teaser post about v1.5!! *crosses fingers*

Many thanks for the Customer Service, Tranj!!

I-Guard

^^ You and me both davis. I never use Pskyers unless its just to throw them in bunkers. I hope that ability gets to the final too. That would be awesome.

And even though Im a I-Guard man, Im still happy to see commissar only adds 200 to morale as opposed to making a squad immune. Now I will not feel to bad when I win hehe.

Methuselath

Interesting, could this mean that Rangers are used more with the buff? I kinda like it myself.

Avalanche

Even though they're detectors, too, I STILL don't use psykers. This new ability should make it into the final, no doubt about it. Finally an efficient way to deal with vehicles in general, and Kans specifically.

ptm56

Uhhm, the changelog SEEMS prety nice to me. I'd only like to sugest 2 changes to orks...

1.- Make a tier 3 (post fort research) unit called "nobs with powerclaws" They cost the same that actually costs each nob with his powerclaw, but without havin' to put the claws one by one to every nob. Maybe they can be a little bit more expensive and need more time to build, I don't know. This would make theme much more competitive in T3.

2.- Maddoks go back to T2 (uhm... 40 pop + POG??), but without fightinjuice... just healing aura. Fightinjuice'll need a research in Tier 3 and the effect of the juice will apply automatically to the unit the maddok is attached to. You don't have to select which unit you want to benefit from the fightinjuice of which maddok. This way is far easier for the nobs to arrive to melee. PSM run really fast, Terminators teleport... nobs have juices to help. You know what I mean?

I don't know if I've explained well, but I tried... Hope you, at least, read this ideas. :-)

Best wishes

Chris

Psykers, commisars and priests do not add to bunker firepower as far as I'm aware. =/

To sum up the list with 1 word: Interesting.

To expand a little, some of those ideas look fantastiic and it would appear that you're trying to make it so there's a much less defined line between tier 1 and tier 2 which I think is good. Of course since there are so many changes I'm not even going to attempt to decide how they affect internal/external balance, especially since this is all pre-beta.

Hats off to everyone involved though, dispite the frustration with not hearing anything for months at a time it still takes my interest when nuggests of info get revealed. Now... just crack those whips a little harder and get it all finalised.

Noir

Ha! I've been suggesting this change since forever, but the Chaos whiners wouldn't take of a word of it!

NathrakH

Some comments on the changes:

_Thank the emperor that they got rid of the orbital bomb damage to HQ!!! something i suggested many times. Nothing is more annoying in this game IMO. :cdance:

_Reducing the reaper accuracy is a real no brainer. I remember suggesting that early on when WA came out and being called a noob for it.

_Reducing the B.L.O.Ws damage was much needed, though the range is a big issue that isn't being addressed.

_The 20 percent guardsman accuracy reduction will be a big help and a needed change for early fights. something i hadn't thought about for balancing them.


----Other comments------

looks like they fixed jogging oblits!! Should have been hot patched IMO. :howdy:

And the huge prism cap!! is that only 7 prisms with an avatar? it's 30/4 right? (owned) :howdy:

The chaos changes look nice. Lots of interesting toys to give them their own feel. With making 'serkers a 4 pop it will encourage people to use marines in t2. :sam:



The only things that I can think of that they missed would be Predator building damage. I think that it could be tuned down a bit. (Would indirectly help orks) And ....um giving back the antitroop option upgrades for preds. It really takes away their flexibility, which is what SM should excel at.


That and they should make B.L.O.Ws require mobilization. :mrpantha:

Isane cap of warp spiders?

The damage of the las upgrade for dreads as well needs some work.

Whodunnit

Good idea, but combined with the incredible anti infantry of the basilisks... basilisk + pysker spam might be imba.

Something to think about....

grendizer

Ehhmm. no friendly fire for prism and ww, still 100% accuracy for ww? (teamgamer here)

I supose betatesters will be in charge of the balance and relic guys have been working hard with known bugs and other things(like making chaos more flexible, thanks relic guys, and thanks tranj for posting these changelog).

ANy wat i dont think we can criticize the changelog seriously cause some of the changes obviously depend of others that are not in this changelog.

To other posters: im happy too with this changelog and 1.5 coming but dont be soft, this is our last chance before the expansion to play a balanced game. We have waited a lot of time, and if there wasnt a beta this changes look like the ones in the other patches: not good enough and made by people who doesnt play the game often (7 prisms will still own). Personal opinion of course and maybe wrong ,and as i said I suppose there are changes in this prebeta that are not in the change log, and betatesting is coming.

NathrakH

Well Whirlwinds don't cause friendly fire on the table top. i think reducing their HPs and increasing their cost is a big balance for a T3 unit.

you can beat them now if you micro and take them out at the first sign of any arty flying around. the problem is their HPs keep them around for too long.

fragba1t

"Turrets are 25% cheaper"

this change should have affected mines also.

"Reduced the larger healing aura of the Chaplain and Apothecary from 4 to 2"could some1 please explain this? does this mean healing will be only 2x?

"Land Speeder (all changes)"
all excellent changes except for the pop cap.



sounds like raptor harass will be a lot tougher to handle. looking forward to seeing how it actually plays out, though not a welcome change imo.

"Increased the accuracy of the Eldar LP 2 Brightlance from 0.7 to 1.0"
what is a LP2 brightlance ? plat ?

Weavern

Let me remind everyone who is planning on quoting then responding to much of the changes of the rules on quoting. "As a rule of thumb keep quotes to around 2 per post. Anymore than 2 and you are running the risk of picking apart anothers post." The Rules There are additional rules on quotes so read up if you plan to use them.

If I see posts picking appart the changelog and simply refering to these changes with one line information. They will be delt with.

Carry on with your questions and comments but follow the general rules on quote use.

grendizer

You have a point nathrakh, but area effect damge weapons without ff are a terrible mistake imo, unit should be balanced according to area effect damage and ff, and no balance the unit so it has no ff.

WW without ff doesnt looks like an important fluf aspect to me, and anyway gamesworkshop didnt balance their games very well, at least when i played fantasy.

Im shure someone is working know trying to make all this changes to a mod, maybe we all can test the prebeta changelog at least

Dorkdav

Could you clarify this. Does this mean the ranger only cost 1 population cap or that you're only allowed to have one ranger squad?

CrossOrion

What precisely is 'new' about this? :P OUt of sheer curiosity

newghost

I think that means only one squad if he is speaking AE.

unless theres more bug squashing, im not sure Ill DL, im too happy with my current game (yes its modded)

wonder if they are going to look at the kanz wrongful armor.

CrossOrion

They don't have to if their Psyker ability turns the Armor into infantry anyways :P



This is going to hurt some chaos players, ALOT if it goes in. Bye bye berserker spam ^^ Hello chaos marine spam :P Beserkers are going to have to be buffed a little bit more, even though they are moral immune..

Tranj

Normally we don't post changes before they are completely final and patched into the game. There have been many requests for more information before the patches go live so that people have some time to digest the information and discuss it.

Penitent

I'm pleased with the Ork changes, I think they are still relatively weak and extremely micro intensive in tier 3 compared to every other race though, I second this suggestion:



Could we also see a reduction in the research time of everybody's tier 4, the long research time is meant to delay techers but what actually happens is the counters to their tier 4 units take too long to research. Say you see Fire Prisms and think "I better research predators" but it takes too long to react in that way.

dreddnott

These changes are FANTASTIC.

I -am- surprised about Khorne Berserkers. With a cap of 4 that puts them over every other infantry unit in WA. I don't see any buffs for them...is it just the fact that Chaos would be overpowered if they didn't gimp something, or is it that a fearless unit so early is an imbalance to the game?

Well once again, absolutely fantastic changes. I think I've seen every single issue that will be fixed, according to this beta, complained about and discussed in posts on the DoW:WA balance forums. Kudos and bravissimo to y'all for listening to us.

Penitent

I think they are 4 cap lin the same way Killa Kans are 4 cap, they become obsolete later on in the game but are quite powerful at the time they are available. The Chaos player might have to pay 150 req to increase his squad cap to field more Berzerker squads, which will help his opponent considering how cheap they are for what they do.

Trizzdog

Ooo no over or under buffs. I'm liking the changes so far. It doesn't feel heavy fisted, and it also seems your taking some ideas from the community in a responsible matter. Keep up the good work guys

soldit

Why have space marines ASM's been nerferd? WHat the heck are they gonna do against raptors now - which have been buffed BTW.

WW are now paper cutouts - good by counter to PSM and Oblits. I see the is the patch of the SM nerf, well it had to come.....

Penitent

Speaking of Possessed Space Marines, I think they need a reduction in the amount of morale damage they do.

Dorkdav

Does the 25% damage buff affect everything?
Rangers, will they finally be useful?
Psyker's ability, how will vehicles becoming infantry work?
Will a buff to all HP and nerf to damge make storm crappy?
Or will building damage remain the same?
Orks, can tank busters put ork tier 2 back in style?

dreddnott

At Tier 3-4? When most units have ridiculous morale, are immune to morale damage, or are vehicles or just plain fearless?

Crazy tentacle armoured marine daemons running across the battlefield at 60 miles per hour, spewing flame and death from every orifice, yeah, that's a lot of morale damage right there. I'm pretty happy that they're not being touched by the patch.

How badly would this break mods? I don't see anything really new besides the various abilities (Chaos, Ork, IG). This of course doesn't count the bugfixes we're going to see later, according to the first post anyhow.

Like others I'm a bit confused by the wording of the changes to Rangers - "Rangers now have a squad cap limit of 1" could mean you can only build one squad but it still takes up 2 cap (most likely), or it could mean you can build as many as you want but they only take up 1 cap point each (less likely).

Compeador

I thought it meant that rangers only cost 1 pop cap, and actually do damage to infantry, instead of tickling them.

4 pop cap for fire prisms is wierd though... I would have thought an implementation of friendly fire, about 1000 hp nerf, and slightly increased build time would have been the way to do it. At 4 pop, that means you only get 5 fire prisms at teir 4 without avatar. That's a bit heavy handed, no? Please don't OVER balance them in the other direction.

I know this isn't final, but PLEASE tell me the ridiculously overpowered chaos power sword is getting a nerf to buildings and vehicles.

Didn't see anything about eldar vehicle rush.... only that the starcannon got more uber.

w00t for the changes to Orks. The automatic claws on nobs after orky fort is an AWESOME idea that I've suggested quite a few times, I really hope that's considered.

hp buff for vypers?

I sure hope the 25% damage increase in teir 1 doesn't apply to buildings also.

If hp is increased in teir 1 and psy storm damage is decreased..... will it become useless?

I really like the changes to IG.

I really like the changes to SM.

whoa @ 4 cap for zerks.... but I suppose with tacs and cultists that actually scale into teir 2 it's needed.


oh, and THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting a tentative changelog.



EDIT: OMG! |xSoT| Jesus just pointed something out to me..... I'm sure he'll post it in a second here.

aerziel

the changes are interesting at best and its a good idea to make it beta so that the community will have a feel for it and test it out and say what they think of it. Hopefully changes will come and be tested so we can see the final result of the beta patch test

Jesus

Just looked over the list and something very very very scary just occured to me.



I am forseeing tier 4 tanks being turned into high HP meat puppets by 7 psykers (4 in the CS and 3 from the HQ) chain casting this new curse spell and max kasrkin subsequently raping your armor. LoL or even better sit an assasin outside the action and rape them with pot shots from your uber rifle and the now auto targetting 100 range basilisks.

heck who even needs to build sentinatals anymore in tier 2, mass plasma, psykers, and 1 or 2 basilisks FTW.


I understand this is just a beta testing thing but woooo that added psyker spell just opens up a whole new can of IG worms...

Romanov77

Instead I think its good...IG sucked vs armor, sentinel were rather good, but were too frail

Jesus

you are missing the point Romanov, now IG doesnt even need to build anti armor unit. psykers + basilisks / plasma guard / kasrkin = dead infantry and armor.

NathrakH

I think the land speeder changes will be very interesting. with a cheaper cost and a buff to all damage types they might be pretty vicious in the support/fast attack role they were meant to have.

I-Guard

@Jesus

I wouldnt worry about it. I dont think the duration of the Curse of Machine Spirits is going to be ungodly long. And think the recharge time for it too. Im sure it wont be something you can abuse.

Though as an I-Guard player I wouldnt be complaining, since we seriously lack anti vehicle imo.

About FP's
For those who are confused, basically 7 is the most you can have at once. I never have been rushed by 10 fps, but i would think 7 is a difference as opposed to 10 lol. I dunno if thats a big change, but as the other guy said you dont want to overbalance it. I always thought 5-6 would be a more reasonable number. But hey what do i know about 7-10 fps? lol.


Edit: Forgot to add, I would imagine it would take alot to get Psykers the Curse ability. It would be silly to have them start out with that ability. Perhaps create a research to get it or something.

Ra2iel

Im more interested what the patch will give in terms of gameplay.

There are some illogical things like :
-Prisms costing 4 pop,instead of just removing the 10 bonus veh cap the avatar gives,with the apropriate HP nerf to the prism.U can still spamm like 15 WLs,,,
-Why the fruit would the AC give HP to the tacticals.Why dont they jsut make a resarch that buffs the CSM health normally.The current change just encourages AC spamming.
-The PS and PP damage to infantry hasnt been changed at all.Its tier1 and a blatant imba.
-what of tier3 infantry units like kasrkin/ogrin/terminator.The spamm still remains
-Eldar still arent specialized again
-Nobz still replace sluggers
-spamm is still effective as alwayz...

im all out agaisnt any form of leader buffing HP of his squad mates.WHY???it doesnt make any sence?!?!

the change log seems like a big step up from ye old WA ,but it needs more changes...and beta testers taht know what they are doing .But i seriously doubt that theyve but 6 months into this ...1 month tops i think
an i know this is just preliminary

nude-fox

personal after seeing these changes for chaos now i know its in pre-beta so there definetly not final but if these were implimented i could see alot of chaos players trying to end the game quickly in teir 1 going for PS + AC + Raptors instead of letting it drag on to teir 2 where they seem a bit nerfed

oh yah give marine tacs Plamasma gun upgrade =) how about this can i built a squad of cultist give them Plasma guns then have tacs take them from them?

Troubleshooter

Remeber jesus: There is no meantion of how long the duration is, or how quickly it will recharge. And 7 Psykers could (perhaps) stop 7 FP's... then what do they do? IG will still need heavy doses of AV. And just look at the proposed buffs to AV units!!! IG would be left behind without some creative solutions. This is one spell that will go under the micro-scope in beta for sure!!!

As for the 4 cap on zerks now... its because of the OMG buff that just happend to CSM and Cultists. 5 Plasma guns and a rock-hard Champion plasma throwing death dealer who hands out HP bonus to the cultists he leads... thats some serious stuff right there. Zerks will be used to tie up enemy units so your Cultists can melt them down. CSM infiltrating along side zerks and decloaking to the sound of 4 HBs and Plasma ripping the air... yeah... zerks are not much less deadly than they were before, but their fire support just got serious. And consider that the Champions (which are now the backbone of the chaos army) add 1 pop-cap, so 2 squads will cover 1 zerk escort. This actually sounds right to me. And since tier 3 will be about phasing out your tier 1, you wont need the zerk escort... so the pop cap is not an issue any longer.

Raptors just got beefier, but less jumpy, this will make Rap harrass still viable, but more costly if you jump into a nest of cheap turrets

Cheap turrets... who would have guessed. Now their cost may reflect thier usefulness.

Pretty much everything looks good right now. Rangers look to be a useful addition to the eldar army. Whirlwinds can actually be countered. Hurray for the return of light vehicles to the eldar and SM order of battle!

Some items that are not on the proposed change log that are worth a second look:
1. Oblit weapons damage/targeting needs to be revisited. No more jogging means that the other weapons need to have a tier 3 feel and usefulness to them that the unit lacks right now. The only use I could see for the Oblit now is as a Meat shield for the Chaos heros and to provide those heros with deep striking mobility.
2. Defilers could be utterly doomed vs. IG... Meat-Puppet-Effect, or MPE (TM. Jeasus 2006), combined with Sentinal firepower will combine to make an already rickety piece of armor just about totally useless. (and still late to the party.) Horrors may replace the defilers last remaining usefull role: Base busting.
3. Troop transport HP (especially Rhinos) is too low to compensate for all this AV potential. Especially when you factor in the more spammy turrets (with missle upgrade) Hostile troop insertion via tier 2 transports, already a rarity, may become extinct.
4. Blood thirster Pop Cap Gimping remains? Say it aint so! Please reduce the cost of the thirster to pop cap or provide some sort of compensation!

And I want to reiterate how wonderful this thread is for the community and your patching efforts. Giving us a sneek peek and the ability to discuss the effects intellegently can only make things better! Now we have targets and hypotheticals to toss out to the beta testers so that certain aspects can be throughly tested and labbed. Things like Ranger spam vs. Guardsmen, MPE vs. Defilers and FP, FP spam vs. new and improved Tank Bustas, and the ever popular Commie rush vs. SM and bunker rushing all come to mind as personal balance issues for the beta process.

One last question for you tranj:: You said that you wanted to address the "spam factor" with this patch. Certainly you are providing some added utility to certain underused units, but there is not dis-incentive proposed to prevent any player from just spamming 1 unit type if they choose to. Do you consider the addition of alternate viable paths to tier 4 as sufficiently addressing the spam issue (it becomes a matter of choice as opposed to nessecity) or will there be more draconian efforts to encourage unit diversity in build orders. (like hard unit caps a la bassilisks and builders)

Thanx again... now I got alot to think about this weekend :heyhey: