Entropy's_Shade

It is stated that the Necrontyr empire, once backed by the C'tan, spanned the entire galaxy. This would make it much larger than even the IoM. Now, I know alot of codex fluff and such can be written as pure propoganda and exageration. What I was wondering is, are there any official star maps that would hint at the extent of this aeon dead, ruins haunted, empire?

Also, being that the IoM is quite large, it is stil quite small, when compared to the rest of the galaxy. Funny thing is, ALOT of tomb worlds are concentrated in IoM space, many near the heart of it. This would make it seem that the the IoM could possibly sitting in the "darkest halls" of what once was Necrontyr space. I would think that the major seat of former Necrontyr power could either be situated somewhere in Segmentum Solar.........or possibly in the unknown exspanses of the dreaded, and blockaded, Gates of Varl.

I have my money that the Gates of Varl was, and still is, the seat of aeon old power for the Necrontyr. No ships come back out of it and it is guarded with a zealotry and terror that is matached only by the highest of forbidden places in the IoM. To cross its threshhold is a death sentence either way. You will either fall prey to the unknown horrors beyond its threshhold, or be captured by blockade ships, interrogated by the Inquisition, and finally executed.

But what if the Segmentum Solar was the hub of this power, hundreds or thousands of Eons ago. What clues could point to the former and blasphemous might that once stood where Man now treads? Aside from the known tomb worlds, not much remains, except for a few sinister and darkly guarded ruins, fragmentory infromation pieces, etc. Could Terra itself hold clues to a former Necrontyr occupation? While it may not be a Tomb World like Mars, it does have its eerie mysteries and unexplaiable places. What information lies compiled in the massive, unamed, vault miles below the Golden Throne(Read the Necron fleet pdf for BFG to see what I am talking about), what of the crop circle phenomena of Terra's ancient 20th century era(Not officially in the fluff persay, but hey, it adds effect) which bear a striking resemblence to the heiroglyphs of Necrontyr ruins, what of the ancient pyramid complex which rests at what was known as the Giza Plateu in Terra's ancient past(Again added for effect), What of the this same pyramid complex, which has gone uexplained for millenia, bearing a striking resemblence to the pyrimidal ruins of the world Nageddon a known Necrontyr tomb world with a dubious history in Explorator records................................and the questions go on.

Could it be that mankind holds more secrets of this ancient evil than can ever be guessed. Could Terra itself have once been treaded, millions of years before mankind or the Emporer, by the cold metallic tread of powers from he dawn of the Materium? Could they have left testaments that would be aeons dead by the time of the Shamans for primitive humanity to ponder? Only time will tell, and as secrets are hidden, plots undertaken, and others revealed, the blasphemous truth will someday be known....................for the record halls of Mars and Terra lie miles in volume, and who knows what lies in the dusty archives before even the Dark Age of technology.

A little theatrical, but a nice little weaving of fluff and speculation. Hope you enjoyed it and feel free to contribute.

Kalimac

Nice reading.

the herald

problem is if necrons walked apon the soil of earth/terra where were we, we didnt have space fearing vessals then. we were monkeys! my question is if we were made by the oldones millions of years ago where were the dinasoars? lol

Entropy's_Shade

I beleive it is stated that humanity was one of the few races that did not get tampered with by the Old Ones and that humans are dumb-luck evolution happening on an ancient ancestor species.......

Also, the dinosaurs would have roamed the planet before the Old Ones even got to if they did even come to Earth. The final meltdown happened 60 Million years ago, and the Old Ones were all but extinct by then, this was well before the rise of anything remotely human...........possibly only a small amount of rodent-lemur like primitive mammals if that.

Chinbobbabobot

Somebody once said they were rooting for the Tau because they were, quote, 'The only species that isn't a pawn of the C'Tan or the Chaos Gods'. So is Humanity a pawn of either? Or are they just there, like the Tau? I'm a little confused.

Vermont

You all know how the dinos were wiped out a many million years ago. Well maybe the Ctan ate earth but maybe were stoped mid way through eating earth by say the old ones. And thus we are here.

Crazy idea i know but, Work with me here people

the herald

it quotes in the necron codex that we were created by the oldones to become a race of pykers. and that the eldar were relutant to wipe us out as the death and destruction of the war in the heavens left few alive

Setaro

Humanity was one of the final races to be messed with/engineered by the Old Ones.

Xenology is a must-read for this sort of stuff.

Entropy's_Shade

Actually its quoted that humans(if you can even call them that) at that time were "comical tree-beasts". The Eldar thought that they would enver amount to anything and it states that raw evolution took over and humanity has become a infestation/plague/etc that now spans the stars.

As far as I have read, the Old Ones were all but dead by the time the first primitive "tree-beasts" came about, about 60 million years ago.

Catt

Well we're only about 200,000 years old as a species...... The primate order may be 40 odd million years old (or more potentially depending upon how controversial you want to be) but we weren't anything remotely 'Human' until 6-8 million years ago, but our genus only appeared about 2.4mya. But this is the real world not 40K!!

shovah O'Shovah

Actually, the Imperium also spans the entire galaxy. It just doesn't fill it. Key difference.

Entropy's_Shade

Fair enough. I just wish they had a map of the entire expanse of the former Necron empire, I am betting it would still dwarf the IoM in volume and world quantity.

TheEmperor

Probably, considering necron FTL tech

Zatrais

The imperium of man is the greatest empire the galaxy has ever seen, according to the latest rulebook so well it's impossible for the necrontyr empire to have been bigger hehe.

Anyhows, the majority of the necron tombwords are probably in the halo zone seeing as thats where the necrontyrs became the necrons after losing most of their empire to the forces of the old ones. It's also no secret that the necrons has been on earth as it's so strongly hinted at in the necron codex that they created the pariah gene in humanity. But they certainly wouldn't have anything valueable on terra, that's something they only left on dead worlds like mars.

shovah O'Shovah

The technical borders of the Imperium are the outer reaches of the Astronomicon, which effectively reaches the length and breadth of the Milky Way Galaxy; since there's never been any indication of extra-galactic alines beside the Tyranids, it's unlikely the Necron empire would have dwarfed that Imperium of Man. As for world quantity, the Imperium does have a million worlds, don't forget. That's a lot.

TheEmperor

Well the necrons have really really fast ships so who knows, maybe there are tombworlds in other galaxies, and I suppose the C'tan, being masters of the materium and all, could get around their hometurf pretty fast.

Vermont

I dout that any race/empire can even come close to the imperium exept for the orks. Dont forget that GW has not yet even qouted the figure of tyranids though. So depending on sales it could be alot or it could be just 2 more hive fleets. We wont know unless GW decides to tell us.

As for the Necrons i very much dout they had more worlds under their control. Remeber that the C'Tan eath whole worlds.

jammers_

They have Inertialess Drives, which essentially means they can go as fast as they like! They can't be seen until they start to slow down! They actually have to start to slow down light years from their destination, I gather.

TheEmperor

Well yea but I wasn't talking about the Necrons, I was talking about the C'tans, they might be able to just teleport around the galaxy because they are the masters of matter

DougyM

The imperials sent out a probe thousands of years ago... its still transmitting...

You know what the probe has been detecting for the last couple millienia.... orks.... trillions upon trillions of them.

Andkat

Wasn't it stated somewhere that the probe is still on the edge of the Milky Way, not in a different galaxy.

Mixmo14

Vermont, you should also remember that every tomb world discovered so far is also stripped bare of life, but I may be mistaken, as I haven't heard of c'tan eating whole worlds

Vermont

I ment by the eating of worlds that they strip them allmost as bad as the nids.

As for the orks. Their was a thread no so long about about the number of people in the imperium. we reasoned that each hive world can have over a trillion.

Balor

Yes, but would Orks have the population density of a hive world? The number of Orks sustainable on a given planet is going to be limited by the amount of squigs that can be grown, and eventually the soil is going to be totally stripped of nutrients and they're going to have to WAAAGH! on out of there or face death by starvation. Most hive worlds faced such a situation millenia ago and dealt with it by importing food from worlds totally dedicated to agriculture. Orks don't really have that option, nor does it seem likely that they'd waste as much time building the towering hive-structures needed to permanently house such a massive population when they could put their numbers to use in a WAAAGH!

Myself, I always figured Orks ran maybe 100-200 billion per world, on a HUGE number of backwoods planets. An Ork planet is also going to be harder to take than a similarly populated human planet because Orks have fighting encoded in their DNA. Thus to a commander used to putting down rebellious planets where only a relatively small percentage of the population is under arms, it's going to seem like the Orks are far more numerous than any Imperial world.

Also, the only race that we know has a presence in other galaxies is the Tyranids. None of the others (with the exception of the Necrons) could even go all that far beyond the outer stars. There the webway ends, and the warp grows calm and slow.

Vermont

Thank you balor. The only reason i think orks would come close to humansin population is in the fact that so many planets are under ork control. I am not realy sure if the orks have more planets under their control, but i do know that the imperium has over a million worlds and more than a few of them are hive worlds with populations numbering in the trillions.

jammers_

I was under the impression that all the other galaxies (with the exception of the ones decimated by Tyranids) were full of Orks.

I heard about that probe, and I think it is still transmitting, and is in another galaxy.

shovah O'Shovah

The closest galaxy is the Large Magellanic Cloud, which is 169,000 light years away. Since the probe won't have access to FTL travel, which requires a Navigator for accurate long-range travel, nor FTL communication, which is accomplished via astropath, it's going to be a long, long time before any probe can even reach the next galaxy, let alone send a message back to the Imperium.

ZellFish

Ok. Pyramids = Necrons. Egyptian Gods = Facets of the Necron Gods. Advanced Technology = ..The Egyptians had pointy laser-sticks. nuff said.

Also, to whoever said the Orks rival the IoM's empire size... What are you smoking? Yes, the IoM is large, but the Eldar controlled THE WHOLE GALAXY at one point, and Orks are on almost every third Imperial World known to man, and then tons of Orks besides on planets lost\yet to be discovered. Not to mention that the warp spews out Hulks that often have Orks on them, so who knows whether or not The Warp has taken them to other galaxies, where the Orks have their own gods, and Gork and Mork are physical beings? All in all, Ork Empire > Empire of Man.

Zatrais

The eldar empire was the size of the EoT, they had some scattered worlds outside it but in main part it was located inside the EoT. They've never had a galaxy spanning empire. The orks don't have an empire either as they're not united under any one banner. The ork empires rise and fall all the time but none comes even close to the I.o.M. There's just alot of orks around, but no true empire.

ZellFish

Actually, the Orks DO have an Empire, just not in the sense of a human empire. They have the empire as in, "Hundreds of tiny waaghs everywhere waging war on eachother". The Orks out-number humanity by 100 to 6. And also, the EoT covers the Eldar core-worlds, when they HAD The Galaxy Spanning empire. It was when they devouted themselves to the lust and glory that became known as Slaanesh that the core worlds were sucked into the real-space\warp tear known as the Eye of Terror.

Zatrais

It's the crone worlds not the core worlds. They had a bunch of other words named maiden worlds which they planned on colonising but never did. The eldar has never controlled a galaxy spanning empire, they had the power to controll the galaxy at the zenith of their power but they could never be bothered to as they were so secure in their superiority (which was true until the fall).

Just where are you getting the 100 to 6 number from? Thousands of ork waaghs fighting eachother dosn't count as an empire, orks hold alot of ground but they're not a united and functioning empire by any strech of imagenation.

mogs

Where are you getting this information from Zell?

Orks are a common enemy as they actively seek out war with the Imperium but they do not attack every third Imperial World as there are vast areas deep within the Imperium that are untouched by Xeno attacks.

jammers_

He meant the worlds at the core of the eldar empire. They are know known as the Crone worlds.

And Orks actively seek out war with EVERYONE! Oh, and I was wrong about the probe. Its just in outlying Milky Way galaxy.

Vermont

Balor allready mentioned that the number of orks per planet is limited by speed at which orks/grots/squigs(?) grow out of the ground. Once they have used up the minerals they have to move on to a new world or starve to death. When you have orks on one planet for over 20 thousand years..... your going to use up the minerals of that planet.

Allso since the orks are allways fighting each other they never reach the massive amount of population that the imperium has. Yes the orks will usaly out number the IG when fighting, but remember ever ork in a WAAAGHH!! is a fighter. While the imperium has a massive number of civilians that cant fight or are needed for other things.

Allso Zell, Where are theese numbers coming from? Any cannon sources for it? Or even A thread on this forum where the people on it agreed by deduction and quoting of sources that such numbers are true? if so please bring them up?

I my self am bringing up some of the stuff discussed a couple weeks ago on the this board. Dont take this as a flame zell. I would just apreachate(sp?) it you would try and qoute more sources. I respect your point of view and i think its cool that a person disagrees, but please try to verifie your facts. If only for our sake.

Andkat

The more war, the more orks. More Orks would exist after a prolonged Waagh! than on some IoM planets. 20K years of fighting=an inane amount of Orks.

Balor

Because the Warp can't take anyone that far. Warp travel is performed by riding on the "waves" of the warp, and those waves are caused by the spirit-echoes of the quadrillions of living beings in the galaxy. There are no living things in the void between Galaxies, so the warp is very calm. Thus, warp travel slows down to a crawl, perhaps to the level of Tau etherdrives. The orks would never get anywhere before they all starved to death.

Furthermore, even if they could travel at regular speeds, they'd still never get there. Just as an example, the Andromeda Galaxy is 2.9 MILLION light years away. At current speeds, it can take years for a ship to traverse the 100k light year diameter of the Milky Way. It would take decades for them to reach anything, and that's at speeds they can't even achieve outside the Galaxy! Realistically, it would take them centuries or even millenia! They'd run out of food a long time before they got anywhere near anything, and then they're fucked but good.

Why would any Orks want to go out there, anyway? There's plenty of fighting here, and it doesn't take centuries to go trash the nearest hive world. It just doesn't synch with their psychology.



I'm sure they could maintain those numbers as long as they had enemies to loot and feast on, but what about when they're done? Between WAAAGHs they've got to live off of what they can grow.

And what WAAAGH lasted 20k years? That's insane even by 40k standards.

Vermont

I wasent saying that a WAAAGGHH!! lasted 20k years. i was saying that there are planets that orks have been on for 20k years and those planets are striped bare. The orks then move onto the next world.

Orks are alot like plants in the fact that they can grow any where that there is nutrents water and sunlight and unlike plants WAAAGGHH!! with all the fighting that orks do i think most planets would be compleatly recked after a couple thousand years of ork habitation.

Mixmo14

That makes me wonder though, there have been reports of Titan sized orks outside the milky way galaxy, I wonder how long it would take for them to grow that size, and how much quicker the planets would be wrecked with things that size walking about...

Erikjust

In every fluff i heard the Eldar Empire stretched at least over half the galaxy, but as Slaanesh was born her/his birth cry/mocking laughter swept across the galaxy, killing many Eldar.

It is also hinted that the birth of Slaanesh, was the force that cleared the warp storms that allowed the IoM to be born.

Balor

Where are you getting that? The biggest I've ever heard of orks getting is a bit larger than a dreadnought.

The Collector

That's from the perspective of human scribes. The IoM is the largest institution on their records, which are in turn rendered spotty by the Age of Strife after the Dark Age of Technology, when it is implied that humans settled the far reaches of the galaxy (which is why the Great Crusades was mostly rediscovering human colonies rather than colonizing worlds full of aliens after purging them). The IoM are the largest contemporary empire, and the largest they have good documentation for, and the largest they're allowed to talk about if they don't want to get executed for heresy.

Erikjust

Of curse we humans believe ourselves to be one of the most important species in the universe (or at least that they think in the W40K) so for them to acknowledged that there have existed empires that deafened there own would destroy all they believed in.